Acupuncture for Infertility and IVF with Jerusha DeGroote Stephens

00:03SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Notes from Your Acupuncturist, the podcast for anyone who's interested in acupuncture, complementary medicine, holistic health, and self-care. I'm your host, Alexa Bradley Hulsey. If you enjoy this show, you can help other people discover it by leaving a rating or a review, by following or subscribing on your favorite podcast listening app, or simply by telling someone about it. And if you'd like to support this show financially, you can become a paid subscriber on Substack for just a few dollars a month. Just head over to substack.com and search Notes from Your Acupuncturist, or click the link in the show notes. And one more thing before we get started, just a disclaimer that this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a replacement for medical care from a qualified healthcare provider. Okay, on with the show.

00:55SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone and welcome to Notes from Your Acupuncturist. I'm Alexa and I'm so excited to be joined today by my guest Jerusha DeGroote Stephens. Jerusha is a licensed acupuncturist and the owner of Sprouted Heart Acupuncture and Wellness in Flowood, Mississippi. Jerusha spearheaded the movement to pass Mississippi's inaugural Acupuncture Practice Act in 2009 and was the first acupuncturist licensed in the state of Mississippi. And a little later on in the show, we're going to hear more of Jerusha's story of being a trailblazing acupuncturist in Mississippi, especially because I was there for some of it and I want to take a little walk down memory lane because Jerusha and I first met, gosh, it was probably about 15 years ago now, when we worked together at an acupuncture practice in Memphis, Tennessee. We've both since moved on to start our own practices and Jerusha now specializes in fertility and has a satellite practice inside an IVF clinic. We're going to have a lot to talk about. Jerusha, welcome.

02:03SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Alexa. I'm so happy to be here and just to get to catch up.

02:06SPEAKER_01: Likewise, I am so excited to talk with you today. We worked together for about a year and then took really different career paths. So you specialize in helping patients who are experiencing fertility challenges and you even treat patients in collaboration with other practitioners based inside an IVF clinic. And we'll get into how all of that works and how it benefits patients. But first, I want to start by asking, did you always know that you wanted to specialize in infertility?

02:40SPEAKER_00: No. Okay. I did not. I love endocrinology, but I didn't know that whenever I was a young acupuncturist. So.

02:41SPEAKER_01: Okay?

02:58SPEAKER_00: Infertility actually found me. So I had my first infertility patient in Texas and she was going through IVF and she was telling me about the procedure and it blew my mind. I was like, I had no clue and I had no clue what she was taking. I listened to the words. She was able to just, like she was a nurse, rattle it off. And I'm like, I don't know what any of this is. And I felt like I was not prepared and that I wanted to be able to help her as much as I could. But, you know, we didn't cover it very much in acupuncture school. And so I...

03:44SPEAKER_00: I kind of just had to get up to speed on her.

03:49SPEAKER_00: I had moved to Mississippi and I was looking at the specialization. There's a certification specialization that had just come out. And I was like, that is what I need. Because after my first IVF patient got pregnant, I was so inspired by helping people grow their families. And I was like, this feels like I'm really helping people in a way that's beyond placebo, that's beyond pain. It's a continuation. It's a legacy for this family. And that is just something that touched me. It just lit a fire under me that I wanted to get absolutely as knowledgeable as I could in order to be able to communicate and fairly treat them with as much skill. It was for my patient more than it was for me.

04:31SPEAKER_01:

04:55SPEAKER_01: Talk about the certification that you did and the additional training that you had.

05:01SPEAKER_01: Sir.

05:01SPEAKER_00: Certainly. So I'm considered a fellow of the American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine. I will note that we have gone through a change in our organization's name. So that will be changing soon. All that to say, I've been an ABORM Fellow since 2010, and I took that certification. It's a test that you sit for, and you have to do a lot of CEUs prior to it in order to pass the test.

05:42SPEAKER_00: It was very difficult, I have to say, but well worth it. And luckily I passed it the first time. Yeah. But in any case, it really gave me a lot of confidence.

05:50SPEAKER_01: Bye!

05:57SPEAKER_00: a tool that I had not known I needed as far as a specialization because as an acupuncturist we're trained as general practitioners but whenever you mature in your practice finding a specialty I think was one of the best things I did for my career.

06:18SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm. You talk about that initial patient you treated in Texas for infertility and the words she was throwing at you. And I remember that feeling too as a young acupuncturist and probably even as a clinical intern when I was a student treating patients with fertility challenges. And I felt like they were so much more knowledgeable than I was. So I remember that feeling well. It was good motivation to learn more. Well, even just

06:52SPEAKER_00: the acronyms. I mean the patient was like TTC means trying to conceive. I'm like okay there's like this the whole lingo in the infertility world and so you know she helped me get kind of plugged in to that and so.

06:53SPEAKER_01: Yes. You know? Yeah. There's a lot of acronyms. What's it look like?

07:16SPEAKER_00: That kind of helped my career because studies came out that showed how acupuncture in conjunction with certain fertility procedures

07:31SPEAKER_00: helped increase pregnancy rates. And so, um,

07:36SPEAKER_00: the patients started to seek me out on their own. And then I feel like they began to turn around and talk to their providers about their experience. And then I started to...

07:51SPEAKER_00: get a referral pool of ob-gyns in particular one um aria that had had some personal experience with acupuncture not himself but in his family and so he was always really open to it and and we began to have a nice professional working rapport between he and his head nurse practitioner and myself i went to his office over the years and made little presentations and i did so for patients and the staff and got to know them and i think that they saw in real time the difference between the patients that were going through very stressful

08:46SPEAKER_00: challenges and how they handled it with acupuncture versus the ones that didn't. And so I started getting a lot of the high anxiety IVF patients and you know it was just like this snowball effect and it all kind of coalesced into us making a plan of creating a multidisciplinary space for IVF patients to come and seek treatment.

09:24SPEAKER_00: other ways to be able to help reduce that high stress that they're going through with dealing with infertility. And so it's geared...

09:35SPEAKER_00: towards that demographic of reproductive age. I also treat a lot of pregnancy there as a natural extension of treating fertility. You're gonna treat pregnancy and I love to see the baby stem to stern. That's like my fave. And so, yeah.

09:52SPEAKER_01: It's like, my face.

09:57SPEAKER_00: We have yoga, we have a beautiful space where we also do nutrition consultations, acupuncture and massage. We also have support groups for fertility patients and it is adjacent to Mississippi Reproductive Medicine. So we've got Paradigm on one side, Paradigm is the name of the wellness clinic. And then literally across the hall is Dr. Hines' clinic. So I'm able to then go and treat patients on their embryo transfer day. Wow, that's great. Yeah, the pre and post was known as the Paulus treatment. Yes.

10:34SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's great.

10:42SPEAKER_01: Yes. And do you do, so let's talk about the POLIS treatment for a second, because that's one of those studies that has been published that shows increased success rates for IVF using acupuncture. And it's a protocol of specific points before and another set of points after the transfer. So do you use that protocol with every patient? I do. Wow, cool. I do. And do you, what's sort of the timeframe before and after the transfer? So

10:47SPEAKER_00: Missed it.

11:17SPEAKER_00: So a frozen embryo transfer patient will come in about 45 minutes before their transfer. I usually have seen these patients once or twice before. Some are naive to acupuncture on that day. Oh, wow.

11:34SPEAKER_00: But that's a personal choice and probably finances play into that, etc. But anyway, on transfer day, the patient and whomever is with her, they go to next door, they get vitals run, and then they come over and they have the protocol for the pre-transfer. It's 10 points and four auricular points. It's very elegant, simple, easy. That is in paradigm where it's really easy to relax. And that time frame is about 30 minutes. I come in, I take the needles out. The patient typically is ready to go next door and have her transfer. That takes about 45 minutes. And then I go join the woman.

12:31SPEAKER_00: in the procedure room and do the post-transfer treatment. Okay. And then that is about another 30 minutes.

12:37SPEAKER_01: Okay and then that is about another 30 minutes.

12:40SPEAKER_01: you

12:41SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm. That is so cool. It is. And now...

12:43SPEAKER_00: It is. Next Tuesday, we've got three transfers, so we have to juggle six different treatments in two different spaces. But we've been doing this now for two years. And so the data that we're gathering is very interesting. And I can't just yet show you anything, but I can tell you that in 2022, it looks like the acupuncture group

12:59SPEAKER_01: Thanks.

13:16SPEAKER_00: It says in the data set acupuncture before and after FET reduces the risk of pregnancy loss by 10 percent. Wow that's significant. Yes so that is a lot of fun. That is getting my science brain really going.

13:33SPEAKER_01: Oh, I bet. And I just think, wow, I wish that this were available to every patient going through IVF. We at my clinic, we also work with a lot of patients who are going through IVF, and we get referrals from the local IVF clinic here as well. And we tell our patients just try to come in within 24 hours before and after your transfer. And most of them are able to do that. And it works. It works well most of the time, but gosh, it would be so nice if they could just walk across the hall from acupuncture to IVF and then remain in the room for their second treatment. Wow, that is great.

13:58SPEAKER_00: the bar.

14:00SPEAKER_00: and

14:11SPEAKER_00: acupuncture.

14:17SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's kind of a dream scenario, honestly. And to boot, it's within walking distance of my brick and mortar.

14:25SPEAKER_01: Oh, very nice.

14:26SPEAKER_00: And so whenever they built this facility, Marty Gephardt, the nurse practitioner that I work with, she's PhD, so she's Dr. Gephardt. She's just fabulous and very smart. But she said, I can't tell you where the new location is, but I can tell you that you can walk there. And I was like, oh my gosh. That is a dream. Could not be better. Yeah, so we make a great team. And I love working with the Western side of things, but still holding space for what we are able to offer. And they appreciate it. The nurses appreciate it. They're telling the patients about it. Yeah. They're like, you go next door right now and see Jerusha.

14:46SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh. That is a dream. Could not be better.

15:07SPEAKER_01: and they.

15:19SPEAKER_01: So is this like an optional add-on? If a patient is going through IVF at this clinic, they can choose to do the pre and post treatments. It's a package, yeah. Yeah, yeah, very.

15:19SPEAKER_00: So is this...

15:29SPEAKER_00: It's a package. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So we, we have a few different packages, um, that, you know, just help reduce the costs. If you, if you buy for, you know, that sort of thing. Cause I, and that's another thing to look at is that, you know, Paulist protocol really is just day, uh, we don't know, or I don't know if those patients were naive to acupuncture or not on that day. Um, because these patients have been through so much, uh, I don't want them to be naive. Plus I think doing some homework and laying the groundwork and helping the uterus with the lining from the get-go weeks before your transfer just makes Chinese medicine sense to me.

15:54SPEAKER_01: on.

16:12SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. Well, let's talk about that a bit because, you know, I always want to encourage my patients to do some acupuncture leading up to an IVF or an IUI and not just come in right before it's going to happen. And I feel like a lot of patients who are experiencing infertility, these are patients who really do their homework, you know, going back to that first patient you had in Texas when she was talking the lingo that you hadn't even learned yet. So I feel like a lot of patients are already aware of the benefits of acupuncture for fertility, but maybe let's sort of run through what are some of those benefits? When should a patient start getting acupuncture if they're interested in exploring acupuncture for fertility and how is it best going to serve them?

17:06SPEAKER_01:

17:06SPEAKER_00: So my best explanation for a patient is that acupuncture helps in kind of a three-prong approach. One is blood flow. So anytime we penetrate the skin, your body is aware of it and sends blood flow to the area that helps facilitate what the doctors are doing with the medicine, but it's also helping with follicle development from a physiological standpoint. The blood flow is important for that to happen, especially to optimize it. And so also

17:47SPEAKER_00: the release of an

17:49SPEAKER_00: happens, which is great for someone who is very stressed out. And so you got a biochemical release in the brain, that's going to help you feel more at peace. And that is going to help you with your quality of life while you were going through an extremely stressful period of time. And then the last is from a neurological standpoint, the acupuncture is giving stimulus to the nerve tissue that is in the areas that I choose. And a lot of times that has a synergistic effect on your reproduction. So I try not to get too heavy into the info, but at the same time, if they understand, OK, blood flow, my nervous system, and helps me with stress, and that's what they walk out with, then that's all they need to know other than, hey, I need to eat more beets or whatever else I told them to do.

18:44SPEAKER_01: or whatever else.

18:48SPEAKER_00: I'll take anyone at any point during their journey. I would love to have every patient for 90 days before they had their eggs retrieved. Does that happen? Not very often. They'll only do that typically if they've had a failed before because they've got their foot on the gas pedal so hard that they choose to ignore the fact that their body is screaming for more help before going through that again. But I'll take anybody at any point.

19:24SPEAKER_01: And do you work with patients who are trying to conceive naturally and not ready to do an IUI or an IVF?

19:32SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. I love to help natural babies. I would love for those couples to be able to save that money. And you know, a lot of times when people are coming to me, they're coming from Dr. Hans's office, they're just beginning their journey. They had a friend that came and saw me or had some experience with acupuncture and they wanted to do everything that they could to optimize, to avoid IVF. And so I'm real candid with them. I say, okay, well, this is slow medicine. This is not take the pill and fix it in a snap. This works with your body, not against it. And we have to give that time. Rome wasn't built in a day. I just try to use all the patient's metaphors that I can and just say, you know, acupuncture typically takes three to six months to help someone trying to conceive naturally. You know, if you're taking medication, you know, I still consider that naturally because you're not making a baby in the lab. But you know,

20:36SPEAKER_00: I just say, come and see me three times a cycle, meaning once, it depends, of course, not everybody's cycle is the same, but I don't want them to feel overburdened by the finances of it. So I also try to give them the space in which they need to be able to come and see me and it still be effective. So I find that a lot of women that have had a current pregnancy loss choose to come and see me as well because they have more of a fecundity issue rather than a fertility issue because they are able to get pregnant. So we know several factors right off the bat that the anatomy is good and the sperm is getting to the egg but whatever is happening after that is what the problem is. And so I really see acupuncture, Shawn, with those patients. And so a lot of times I'll just say, okay, maybe hold off trying to conceive one or two months. It's really hard to ask them to do that. It is. To back off and try to get in a good place because if you get pregnant and your well is empty, you may not be able to maintain the pregnancy or you're gonna be an empty vessel at the end of this road. So we really have to get you into a good place because pregnancy can take a lot out of you. And so we want to make sure that there is an overabundance of chi and blood to be able to support pregnancy. A lot of times they will listen and then they do. They get pregnant pretty quickly and then I'm like, you gotta come every week until we get you to 10 weeks or whatever the threshold is for that patient to get through.

22:31SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's, I find that too, when a patient has been experiencing fertility issues, this is often something that has gone on for years. And you mentioned that foot on the gas pedal, they are so ready to be pregnant and have a baby and have a family. And sometimes their body is just not there yet. So, yeah, it is a matter of talking to people about slowing down a bit on that, which can be so difficult because these patients are just ready. They are ready for their family. While there are

22:43SPEAKER_00: and

23:13SPEAKER_00: also being told that they're old.

23:17SPEAKER_01: Right, that's true.

23:19SPEAKER_00: me crazy. Yes, yes. You know, I know, being told that they're old and I can't stand that. You know, I was advanced maternal age when I had my second child. I was 41 when I had her and I struggled with secondary infertility. So I was one of those miscarriage patients. And one of the reasons that my girls are seven years apart is because I had losses. And so during that time, I had a very intimate look at what my patients were experiencing. And, and you know, all I heard because all of these happened after 35 was it's probably a quality, you know, and that's, that's hard to hear. Yeah, there's probably some sperm issues too, by the way, whenever you get that old, right.

23:21SPEAKER_01: Yes.

23:54SPEAKER_01: So.

24:07SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

24:10SPEAKER_01: whenever you get that old. Right. But we don't talk about those as much. No. You know, while we're on that topic, why don't we talk about male factor infertility for a minute and what are the benefits of acupuncture for male factor infertility?

24:22SPEAKER_00: Okay.

24:30SPEAKER_01: So.

24:30SPEAKER_00: there are less studies surrounding acupuncture and sperm quality. So I will say that it's a difficult demographic to get to have regular treatment. I have discovered that when men are

24:52SPEAKER_00: I mean, I hate to say it, but whenever they are faced with using a donor sperm, that is when they usually come to see me. And so if things are looking grim, like they have no sperm or their motility or morphology is not good, you know, and that has been suggested, then they're like, okay, well, I'm going to

25:16SPEAKER_00: I can't have that happen, so I'm going to do whatever I can. Yeah. They also, they kind of skirt the issue with it, I think, within the infertility community because of Ixie. Oh, OK. In the web, they can, I mean, it's a beauty contest for sperm. They pick the prettiest one, and then they, he has no work. Hey.

25:43SPEAKER_00: Completely shot into the egg.

25:46SPEAKER_00: So, you know, so they're like, oh, we're going to do ICSI, you know, and so there's some education that I have to do there too. It's just like, we don't know what the DNA of that sperm looks like, so let's try and get you in a good place before you give that sample so that the beauty contest has more.

26:06SPEAKER_01: More contestants. Freezing?

26:09SPEAKER_00: But, you know, and it's not a focus of mine just because it's not widely done. And I think most fertility acupuncturists would say that that is a big, a gaping wound because there are at least one third of infertility is due to male factor. Yeah.

26:36SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

26:37SPEAKER_01: When you do treat men for male factor infertility, do you generally tell them the same time frame to expect 3-6 months of treatment?

26:49SPEAKER_00: Yes, so spermatogenesis takes 90 days. So from three months ago, the ejaculate today is three months old. Gotcha. And so there is a turnover with sperm. And so yes, the more time, the better. And supplements, zinc, I mean, there are a lot of vital nutrients that can help improve sperm parameters, I believe. So I do, and men always want to know what the treatment is gonna be like, because they have this concept that you're gonna do something crazy with their genitalia. Right.

27:32SPEAKER_00: And so I just tell them, it's usually the wife that I talk to first. I say, I always do a back treatment. I always treat the sacrum and the kidneys and the heart.

27:43SPEAKER_01: And.

27:47SPEAKER_00: that helps relieve a lot of pressure. So that they just know, hey, I don't even have to hardly say anything. I just come in and get face down. She's going to treat my back. I've got low back pain anyway. This is great. You know? Right.

28:00SPEAKER_00: So, but really I emphasize that your sperm may improve, but you're not going to get that best result until the ones that we are nourishing today have matured. Okay.

28:15SPEAKER_01: Now, do you prescribe Chinese herbs in your practice as well?

28:19SPEAKER_00: I do. We have a full patent pharmacy. No raw herbs, no powders. It's too humid and too many bugs here in Mississippi. The powders just turned to a chunk.

28:28SPEAKER_01: here in Mississippi.

28:36SPEAKER_00: Here's your chunk of herbs. Right. You need a chisel.

28:44SPEAKER_01: And do you prescribe herbs for patients who are going through IVF as well as patients conceiving naturally?

28:52SPEAKER_00: Definitely patients conceiving naturally.

28:59SPEAKER_00: doctor, which IVF doctor, so there are three IVF doctors in town, and I work with patients from all of them, and I kind of know their preferences. And so I'm a backup singer here. I am not the lead, so I really want to just be hands-off. The only time I really incorporate it with the doctor that I work with has been if we have collaborated on the patient and they are comfortable with whatever it is that I want to prescribe. And they are typically very agreeable because we've worked together.

29:44SPEAKER_00: are so long, 10 years. I mean not together in the same practice but you know referral wise. So they I feel like they have a level of trust in me that a lot of acupuncturists aren't privy to because they just don't have that I mean face-to-face relationship. Right.

29:45SPEAKER_01: 10 years.

30:02SPEAKER_01: You mentioned earlier that you like to treat stem to stern and until the baby is born. We know getting pregnant is only one step and you mentioned working with patients with recurrent pregnancy loss. So what is your approach to treatment? Once a patient gets that positive pregnancy test, then what type of treatment do you typically or treatment plan do you typically recommend then during pregnancy?

30:37SPEAKER_01: So.

30:37SPEAKER_00: So if they have recurrent pregnancy loss, we get them to their threshold. They're usually feeling pretty awful during this time anyway, first trimester. And so they're more than happy to come in weekly and get some help and some rest. And I find that when patients get pregnant,

30:57SPEAKER_00: with Chinese medicine, they don't want to stop doing it. Because they may not want to rock the boat or they're just like, okay, we're good. Let's keep this up. But as they get more comfortable and their anxiety has come down, then I say, you can start to space your treatments out if you need or want to. And then I explain to them, if something like sciatica comes up whenever you're really pregnant or you're having all kinds of digestive issues, there are so many things that can come up during pregnancy. I never knew so many women got carpal tunnel during pregnancy. So many. Oh my gosh. And their little hands are all swollen. But anyway, all of that. And then I do a fair amount of labor work as well. And so I'll let them know, I don't know much about your birthing preference since we just got you here at pregnancy. But, you know. So, and I explain that we can support you if you desire natural labor or breech position. I do treat that as well. And I love it. I love getting the announcements or the Christmas cards and feeling like when I'm out in public, because Jackson, Mississippi is a pretty small place, and going to my church, I'm like, that's one of my babies. That's one of my babies. And that's just so fun.

32:25SPEAKER_01: That's one of my babies. And that's just so fun. It is so fun. I love that feeling. Yes. Yeah, it's really, it's, it's a, it's a privilege that we have as acupuncturists to play a role in people be a being able to start a family or grow their family. And I also, I also like to joke with patients that the acupuncturist is usually the first person to know when you're pregnant.

33:00SPEAKER_01: Yes, they did, because they can confide in you. They can. They'll come in and say, I haven't told anyone yet, but like yesterday I had a positive pregnancy test. I'm like, yes, I'm always the first to know. Oh, I know.

33:12SPEAKER_00: I love it. Just sometimes after the husband, sometimes before the husband, which is even funnier because they're like, oh, he's out of town. I can't tell him over the phone or whatever. And then I have had more than one bring their urinated on pee test in a Ziploc bag and said, is this really positive? Like, indeed it is. Or text.

33:32SPEAKER_01: Or text you a picture of their... Text the picture, yes. There really is just a level of intimacy because for some of these patients this is the most difficult thing they've ever gone through. Yes. Trying to get pregnant and we get to be there and walk that journey with them and it's just really, it's a special relationship that we have with those patients that I really cherish. Me too. Yeah. Now one other thing I want to ask you, I know it's hard to generalize because every patient is different, but what kind of general recommendations, maybe dietary recommendations or lifestyle do you have for people who either want to improve their fertility naturally or who are maybe preparing for a procedure like an IUI or an IVF?

34:29SPEAKER_00: So I created a document that I send to all of my fertility patients. And I say, this is not a diet. It's more like a guideline. And I'm here for 85% compliance, and I'm not going to quiz you on it. There are recipes in here that are really good. And I encourage them to focus on their nutrition. Because that whole fill in the well thing, making sure that the account is full before we start to take from it. And so nutrition is a big part of my education. I also have a favorite book that I recommend for patients to read that helps them know more about how acupuncture can help on their fertility journey. It's called Making Babies. I love that book. I'm familiar with it.

35:29SPEAKER_00: I love that book. It was written by an REI and an acupuncturist that work closely together. And so it's a nice balanced approach, which is kind of how I try to do things. But otherwise, lifestyle changes. Yes. I'm like, do you work with someone that you don't like? How do you handle that? You know, and I'm trying to say it's the everyday interfaces that can be difficult, you know, and just try to get them to see that maybe.

36:02SPEAKER_00: Marathoning is not conducive to fertility. Yeah. I mean, there's so many things that you have to think about. I mean, I never thought I would have to tell somebody to slow down their exercise.

36:07SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?

36:16SPEAKER_01: Right.

36:17SPEAKER_00: Right. Especially around here in the deep south, but you do, you know, I mean there are, there can be issues with that for sure. So yeah, lifestyle and diet.

36:31SPEAKER_01: I think about the, you mentioned nutrition and filling the well, I think about the pre-heaven and the post-heaven essence. And those are concepts that we have in traditional Chinese medicine. And your pre-heaven is what you're born with and it cannot be replenished. And then your post-heaven is what you put into your body through nutrition. And that can be replenished and you replenish it every day. And you also, you also use it every day. And the more that we can protect that pre-heaven essence that can't be replaced, then the more healthy we're going to be in general, but certainly the better off your body will be for preparing for a pregnancy because we don't want to dip into that well of pre-heaven essence.

36:51SPEAKER_00: Nutrition.

37:18SPEAKER_00: And that is basically epigenetics.

37:21SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is, isn't it? Yes. Yeah, here comes that science brain again. Well, we've talked a lot about fertility. It's been so interesting because I really, I love working with these patients too. And as we've been talking, I've just been thinking about some of the patients I've worked with and just what a joy it is to see their families grow. But I want to switch gears and talk about another part of your journey as a practitioner, which is your organizing and legislative work. So you are a Mississippi native, born and raised, right? Absolutely. You went to acupuncture school in Texas, and then you returned home to Mississippi to practice.

38:09SPEAKER_01: So, then what happened?

38:12SPEAKER_00: So.

38:14SPEAKER_00: Hurricane Katrina brought me back to Mississippi in 2005. I'd been in Texas for six years. And I started practicing there, but SIPI, I knew that it was not legal for me to do it. And it wasn't available. And so at that time, I needed to help my family. And so I did my family help. And then I went and worked on a cruise ship doing acupuncture for about seven months. And I came back to Mississippi ready to work. But I knew that it was in the rules and regulations for the medical board that only medical doctors could practice acupuncture. It was not actually in the law books. And so that somehow in my brain gave me permission to hang a shingle. So I very quietly began to practice acupuncture in Jackson, Mississippi in the hippest, cutest little neighborhood called Fondren. And I had one room. I saw one person at a time. And I didn't advertise. I did reach out to the university because they had an acupuncturist there to see what she knew about Chinese medicine because she was an MD. And I could tell that she didn't really want to have much of a conversation with me. But 10 months in, I got a cease and desist from the medical board for practicing medicine without license. And so many tears were shed. But I closed the business. I notified the board that I'd done so. And I started waiting tables. And so I waited tables at a fine dining establishment. And I did that mostly at night because during the day, I'd begun to go to the Capitol to try to talk to anybody that would listen to me about acupuncture. And remarkably, there were a lot of legislators and lobbyists that came to the fine dining restaurant. And I had one lobbyist in particular who loved my story and kind of, I mean, for lack of a better word, just brought them in for happy hour. And I would serve them wine. And he would be like, tell them your story. And it was just like magic, serendipity. And it was fun getting to know them. And anyway, it's such a good story because at that point, I was working in Tennessee too. Yes. I was commuting to Memphis to do acupuncture two days a week and sleeping on the floor or wherever I could at your house. Yeah. I just tried to save money so that I wasn't going backwards with trying to still practice acupuncture. But I wanted to prove that it was ridiculous that this Mississippi girl had to drive three hours to Memphis to work. And so that spoke to them. And we don't have to reinvent the wheel. If our neighbors are doing this, we really need to be able to do it too. I need to be here for my parents. And just connected with them in a way that, hey, I know you put your pants on one leg at a time. Me too. And just have practical conversations with people. And it took two years, but we did get the law finally passed in 2009. Wow. What a story. It's my claim to fame. Delia calls me. That's my child. She said, you're the grandmother of acupuncture in Mississippi.

42:11SPEAKER_01: You are, you're like the Miriam Lee of acupuncture in Mississippi.

42:16SPEAKER_00: Mississippi. Well, it's so funny because I my license is 00001.

42:26SPEAKER_01: Wow, so they expect to someday have 99,999 licensed acupuncturists in Mississippi, which would be awesome. Yes, it would be great.

42:33SPEAKER_00: That would be awesome.

42:35SPEAKER_00: The more the merrier.

42:37SPEAKER_00: But I always laugh about all those zeros, how to get all those zeros before that one. Yeah, that's right.

42:43SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a metaphor for life. Yeah, totally, totally. Well, and I remember joining you in the Capitol one day in Jackson and talking to legislators. Yes.

42:46SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

42:51SPEAKER_00: talking to legislators.

42:53SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think I remember you talked to the Lieutenant Governor.

42:57SPEAKER_01: No, I talked to the governor. I talked to Haley Barber and shook his hand and he was very supportive of your legislation. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, this has been so much fun. I'm just, I'm so glad to connect with you and just hear. I've been following what you've been up to, but it's really wonderful to hear it in your own words and it's really exciting what you're doing and I hope that other acupuncturists are able to...

43:33SPEAKER_01: to adapt that in their own communities because I just think it's so beneficial to the patients to be able to do their pre and post acupuncture right there at the IDF clinic. So I hope that this will inspire other acupuncturists to try to make those kind of inroads in their own communities. more

43:44SPEAKER_00: IVF clinic.

43:53SPEAKER_00: Or they could come and work with me. Or yes. If they have any interest in working in an IVF clinic, they can reach out to me. Jerusha's hiring. I'm the clone. Yes. No, we are so busy. We are so busy. Yeah, I'm sure. It's great. I never knew I would be so busy.

43:55SPEAKER_01: Or yes.

43:59SPEAKER_01: They can reach out to me. Jerusha's hiring. It's the coolest thing ever.

44:04SPEAKER_01: I'm...

44:08SPEAKER_01: I'm sure.

44:10SPEAKER_01: so busy. Yeah, I'm so happy to hear that and just happy for all of your success. Thank you, you too. Thank you. Well is there any anything else that we haven't talked about that you would like to add?

44:25SPEAKER_00: I know, I think we could probably do three more of these, Alexa. I know! We could! I feel like we're just scratching the surface. I know. But yeah, yeah, there's just more to come in the future podcast. Definitely.

44:28SPEAKER_01: I know! We could!

44:33SPEAKER_01: instead.

44:38SPEAKER_01: Yes.

44:39SPEAKER_01: Definitely, we'll definitely have to have you back because this has been just great. If people want to work with you or work with you either as a patient or acupuncturist out there listening, if you want to be a Jerusalem associate in Mississippi, or patients want to learn more about your practice, how can people find you?

45:03SPEAKER_00: So they can email me directly. My name is Jerusha, J-E-R-U-S-H-A at sproutedheartacupuncture.com, all spelled out. You can find me at sproutedheartacupuncture.com. If you Google Jackson, Mississippi acupuncture, I'll come up and you can find me there as well. Otherwise we have social media. So on Instagram, sprouted heart acupuncture. So I would love to show you around the clinic.

45:33SPEAKER_01: All right.

45:37SPEAKER_01: Yes, and we'll put all of that in the show notes and we'll also put a link to the book that you recommended, Making Babies. Oh, great. That's a great book. Yes. And thank you so much for joining me today.

45:44SPEAKER_00: Oh, great. Great.

45:50SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. We'll do it again maybe next quarter. Definitely.

45:55SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to today's episode of Notes from Your Acupuncturist. If you liked what you heard, please follow this show, leave a rating or review, or just tell someone about it. And if you want to join the conversation, you can subscribe to Notes from Your Acupuncturist on Substack, where you can comment, ask questions, participate in discussion threads, watch videos, and read more of my reflections on acupuncture and healing. Huge thanks as always to our paid subscribers for helping keep this work sustainable. You too can become a paid subscriber for just a few dollars a month. Just head over to Substack.com and search Notes from Your Acupuncturist or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, this is Alexa Bradley Hulsey, your acupuncturist, signing off with love and gratitude.