Ep. 17: How Acupuncture Supports a Healthy Pregnancy, with Jerusha DeGroote Stephens

Alexa Hulsey [00:00:03]:

Welcome to Notes From Your Acupuncturist, the podcast for anyone who's interested in acupuncture, complementary medicine, holistic, health, and self care. I'm your host, alexa Bradley Halsey. If you enjoy this show, you can help other people discover it by leaving a rating or a review, by following or subscribing on your favorite podcast listening app, or simply by by telling someone about it. And if you'd like to support this show financially, you can become a paid subscriber on Substac for just a few dollars a month. Just head over to Substac.com and search Notes From Your acupuncturist or click the link in the show notes. And one more thing before we get started, just a disclaimer that this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a replacement for medical care from a qualified healthcare provider. Okay, on with the show.

Alexa Hulsey [00:00:55]:

Hello, everyone, and welcome to notes from your Acupuncturist. I'm Alexa. And today I'm thrilled to be joined once again by my friend and colleague, Jerusia DeGrote Stevens of Sprouted Heart, Acupuncture and Wellness in Flowwood, Mississippi. Jerusia first joined me in episode eleven for a rich discussion on acupuncture for infertility and IVF support, and today she's back to talk about what happens after the positive pregnancy test and how acupuncture can support a healthy pregnancy and prevent pregnancy loss. Jerusia, welcome back.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:01:32]:

Hello, Alexa. I'm so glad to be here again.

Alexa Hulsey [00:01:34]:

Thank you. I am, too. Before we get started, I just want to give a quick content warning, because we will be discussing pregnancy loss during this episode. And if that's a difficult topic for any of you listening out there, you might want to skip this episode. And on that subject, we talked about this a bit in our fertility episode. This is an exciting time in a patient's life when they first get pregnant, but it can also be a very fraught time with a lot of worry. So I'd like to start by talking about some of the emotional and psychological benefits of acupuncture for people who are pregnant or want to become pregnant or want to maintain a pregnancy.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:02:20]:

Well, I really think that acupuncture helps to kind of downshift the brain from a sense of heightened overdrive that happens whenever you're trying to conceive and having fertility challenges and perhaps going through expensive procedures. And the psychological benefits, I think, is just like lifting the burden for even 30 minutes and giving a patient a sense of peace or escape from the world. And I tell my patients, this is a grown up time out.

Alexa Hulsey [00:03:06]:

Yes.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:03:08]:

I'm going to make you be in here by yourself, like a sensory deprivation chamber. I'm going to take your phone away from you, and you just have to be. And I think that helps them psychologically as they go through this, because there's so much mental and emotional burden that goes into these patients lives that they don't really get much of an escape. And so for them to be able to have that time out. I also think that the biochemicals that are released during acupuncture are great for the brain. It's an effortless way to step back and kind of view things a little bit differently. But I do think that, like I said, the biochemicals that are released during acupuncture help the brain to just downshift. And I know they've done studies on the brainwaves during acupuncture and how they are very similar to sleep waves or meditation. Meditation.

Alexa Hulsey [00:04:24]:

I am so fascinated by that. I love talking about brainwaves. I think it's so interesting.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:04:28]:

Yes.

Alexa Hulsey [00:04:29]:

And what happens to the brain during acupuncture. Yeah, it is a downshift into that alpha and theta and delta brainwave state, which can be deeply relaxing.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:04:40]:

Yes.

Alexa Hulsey [00:04:40]:

And I love what you say about effortless because when patients are trying to get pregnant, and especially if they're going through a lot of fertility treatments, it does feel like another job. There's so many appointments and so many such a rigid schedule. You have to adhere to with medications and injections and appointments and everything is timed down to the minute. And to be able to step away and let someone else guide your journey or just let someone else take care of you.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:05:14]:

Take the will.

Alexa Hulsey [00:05:15]:

Yes, exactly.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:05:16]:

Take the will. Lie down, relax.

Alexa Hulsey [00:05:19]:

That's all you got to do.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:05:24]:

I do just say, let me take care of you for a little bit. And that is nice because they do have to be so, like you said, regimented, even down to their intimacy with their partner. And that can take its toll, especially after long duration.

Alexa Hulsey [00:05:46]:

And if a patient has other young children and they're trying to get pregnant, it's a nice way for them to step away from the responsibilities of parenthood for a half hour or so.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:05:59]:

Yes. It's so funny that you say that, because I know if my patient is a parent already, because I've done an intake and asked them about their history and I have to put the needles in. I say, nobody's going to ask you for a snack for 30 minutes. No snacks.

Alexa Hulsey [00:06:24]:

No snacks. That's great.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:06:28]:

As a parent, I mean, I just feel like there's a conveyor belt of food going into my child's mouth. Just ate.

Alexa Hulsey [00:06:37]:

To be able to not have to do that for 30 minutes, that's a nice deal.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:06:41]:

It is. And so there's some self care is a buzzword, I guess. And it bothers me a little bit because it's something that we all need. But I think that there's still this idea around self care that it's a luxury, right?

Alexa Hulsey [00:07:04]:

Yeah.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:07:05]:

And that being able to take that break, because we are not programmed as Americans to take breaks, you know, I mean, we're just like go, go. Lying down in the middle of the work day seems preposterous to some people.

Alexa Hulsey [00:07:23]:

It does, right.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:07:24]:

Helping them understand that, hey, you can do this and it's okay. And it's not luxury, it is taking care of yourself. And we all need that. We've just had generations that have ignored it.

Alexa Hulsey [00:07:42]:

Right. I think we need to redefine what self care means and reframe it as something that is not a luxury, that it is necessary. It's survival in some cases. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think as acupuncturists, we're in a good position to do that redefining for people and to help people see it's not just relaxing and kicking off your shoes for 30 minutes. I mean, that's part of it.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:08:11]:

It's therapeutic.

Alexa Hulsey [00:08:13]:

Yes, it's therapeutic. It's so much deeper than that. So, related to pregnancy, another question that will sometimes come up is people want to know if acupuncture is safe during pregnancy. And I always tell people, yes, it's very safe. Are there ever instances when you don't recommend acupuncture during pregnancy?

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:08:33]:

The only thing I could think of would be a patient with a history of epilepsy or vagal response syncopy. I have had several pregnant women have what some people call needle shock. I don't really like that term, but it's syncopy, meaning if you're scared of needles or anxious, you might faint. And that happens with acupuncture, and I have seen it happen several times with pregnant women. It's not dangerous if you can see the signs and quickly remove the needles and help them pull out of that vagal response. But that would be someone that I would hesitate to treat again. But literally, I think that's it.

Alexa Hulsey [00:09:28]:

Yeah. I talk to patients about the precautions that we take during pregnancy because we do have a set of points that are called the forbidden points. That's a set of points that we avoid during pregnancy. And they're easy to avoid because there are hundreds of points on the body. We have lots of other points to choose from. So I feel like our medicine has sort of a built in safeguard in pregnancy and we as practitioners are trained not to use these specific points during.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:10:05]:

Pregnancy until the end.

Alexa Hulsey [00:10:07]:

Until the end. We'll talk about that in a minute.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:10:11]:

Yes.

Alexa Hulsey [00:10:14]:

But yes, I feel like it's one of the safest therapeutics that you can do during pregnancy.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:10:20]:

Yes, absolutely. I think nobody wants to harm a pregnancy or a pregnant woman. And so there's a lot of care that goes into my practice because as a natural extension of treating fertility, I treat a lot of pregnancy as well. And so I do have kind of a trimester schedule, if you will, with how I treat patients and especially those that have had pregnancy loss. I will ask them to please come and see me every week until we get past their threshold of loss. And most of the time that is the first trimester. Occasionally it will be after that for stillborns. But nevertheless, some people just opt to keep coming because they see the wisdom or they feel the benefits of acupuncture during their pregnancy. And so it can be one of my favorite things is what I call a stem to stern baby.

Alexa Hulsey [00:11:33]:

Yes, I love it too.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:11:36]:

They conceive under your care, and then they have the baby under your care. And just seeing those families grow is so fun. And to see someone transform into motherhood or parenthood during that time is really nice too. But I see a lot of morning sickness in the earliest parts of the pregnancy, treating a lot of anxiety, and I talk to them about supporting the pregnancy with the points that I choose, not only not using the forbidden points until we need them, but also helping them understand that directionality is really important in Chinese medicine. And so lifting the chi versus descending the chi. So I explained if you have hypertension or your periods late or you're vomiting, all that energy is coming up. And so what we want to do is kind of oppose that nicely and try to help things to descend. But in the case of a pregnancy, we want to do what I call a holding treatment or an uplifting treatment. And so I love to use Shin song.

Alexa Hulsey [00:12:59]:

Yes, I do too.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:13:02]:

I love those points to help lift the g, but also be able to calm the mind.

Alexa Hulsey [00:13:11]:

Yes. So for our listeners out there who aren't acupuncturists, sushan song is a set of points on the crown of the head. It means four alarm spirit, and I usually combine them with do 20 by hui, which is a point at the top of the head, and then Sushinsong is forward, backward on either side of it. So there's five points on the top of the head. And I do that combination almost always in the first trimester because of that action that you described. It lifts and holds a chi, but it can also treat that rebellious chi. So when you're talking about Qi moving in the wrong direction, like hypertension and vomiting, we call that rebellious chi in Chinese medicine. Love that term.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:13:59]:

I love the way Chinese medicine describes that.

Alexa Hulsey [00:14:02]:

I do too. Yeah. I love that we find that balance of lifting and descending, moving up and moving down and holding. There's so much nuance to what we do in Chinese medicine and with acupuncture that we can apply our medicine in these situations where we're doing multiple things at once. We're moving up and moving down, we're holding and moving at the same time. And acupuncture can beautifully do all of that together.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:14:39]:

Yes, it's interesting because you want to hold a pregnancy, but a lot of these women are taking progesterone because they've gone through fertility treatments until they're about ten weeks when the placenta takes over. Providing progesterone and progesterone, one of the side effects is constipation.

Alexa Hulsey [00:14:55]:

Yes. Oh, I know. Yes.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:14:58]:

And so obviously you would like for that to descend, but at the same time support the pregnancy. And so I think it is so much nuance because you want to be able to help move and guide things gently and effectively. But yeah, it's so much fun.

Alexa Hulsey [00:15:20]:

It is. Well, why don't we kind of go through the trimesters? Because you mentioned that you sort of have an approach through each of the trimesters. And so I'd love to talk about acupuncture through the different stages of pregnancy. It's pretty well known for treating nausea and morning sickness. So let's talk a little bit about how exactly that works.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:15:45]:

So there's a cardinal point for nausea, any type of nausea, that's Pericardium Six. And I definitely do acupuncture on that point along with the Shin song. And I also am going to listen to what the patient is going through. I mean, that first trimester can be exhausting because you're building a little human and it takes lots of chi. And so typically people are very bone tired and so helping them be able to have that escape, have some rest, not serve any snacks or whatever the situation is while they're trying to maintain a pregnancy is great. So nausea and anxiety are probably at the top of the list whenever it comes to what I'm treating in the first trimester. If they have a blood clotting disease, I might consider invigorating blood, depending on if they're on blood thinners. Are they averse to eating? Just trying to help individualize where that patient is so that I don't, I don't use a lot of points early in pregnancy, so I usually try to keep it very focused on the top two or three issues that the patient is seeing.

Alexa Hulsey [00:17:16]:

So you mentioned nausea and anxiety. Pericardium six treats both of those. That's one of the things that's so cool about acupuncture is we can do a treatment with minimal needles that has such far reaching effects. And Pericardium Six is a point on the wrist. And I recommend C bands for my patients, too, which is an elastic acupressure band that you can buy at a drugstore that stimulates that point. Pericardium Six, these products are marketed for people going on cruises and for sea sickness, but they use acupuncture theory that works really well. I have my patients wear Cbands or I'll place seeds at Pericardium Six and it's an ongoing stimulation that helps both the nausea and the anxiety.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:18:06]:

Yes. So, interestingly enough, I do something very similar in that I use the serum pionex press TACs on Pericardium Six, and if they are super sick, I say get the C bands and put it on top of the pioneex. I also teach the patient, I send them home with some press tags because you wash your hands so much that those press tags aren't going to last very long, but they need more help throughout the week. And so I say, do you see this major risk crease three fingerprints up and they own it. Usually when they come in with the speed bands, they're like, am I putting this in the right place? And I'm like, you're really close, but you go between the train tracks, the ligaments in your wrists, those sort of things help people understand because for you and I, point location is something we could do in our sleep. But this is like a whole new realm for them. But they also feel like they can kind of help themselves, empower themselves to get through a rough time, because morning sickness can be very debilitating for some people.

Alexa Hulsey [00:19:32]:

Very well, let's get into the second trimester now.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:19:36]:

Okay, so this is usually the smooth sailing trimester.

Alexa Hulsey [00:19:40]:

Yes.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:19:41]:

You're not so big that you've got sciatica, your hormones, your progesterone is high, and you feel good. And it's typically kind of the smooth sailing trimester. And if they have gotten to their threshold for pregnancy loss, meaning they have made it past where they have not made it past before as far as weeks of their pregnancy, and they are starting to kind of simmer down and settle into the pregnancy, I just say, come and see me if you need me. Sometimes if they've had pregnancy loss, they're like, no, I'm coming every week. So I try to give them some wiggle room. But sometimes the hips can start to be painful, pubic synthesis, pain. Sometimes headaches can come up. And so I just help manage things as they walk through the pregnancy.

Alexa Hulsey [00:20:52]:

Yeah.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:20:53]:

Do you see anything in the second trimester typically more than other trimesters?

Alexa Hulsey [00:20:58]:

Not really. It is kind of the lull trimester. I feel like usually the morning sickness has resolved by then. Their anxiety has come down a little bit because, yes, they're past that threshold. Things are moving and the baby's growing, but not pressing on nerves necessarily yet, or really pushing organs out of the way. So it's kind of a lull. And so I find the same in my practice. Some patients continue coming in because they feel like it's just really helpful and supportive. Others, they take a little break from Acupuncture, and then I start to see them again later on in the pregnancy.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:21:42]:

Yes. They tell me they need to save money and save money for baby clothes.

Alexa Hulsey [00:21:47]:

Exactly. That's when you start buying the stuff too.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:21:51]:

That's right. Yeah. You can finally start buying the stuff because you might actually have a baby.

Alexa Hulsey [00:21:55]:

Right. So now, getting into the third trimester, there's so many benefits here, and two areas in particular are turning a breach baby and cervical ripening and labor prep. And I want to talk about those in a minute. But what else do you typically see happening in the third trimester that you address with Acupuncture?

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:22:19]:

Gestational diabetes. As well as it may not be preeclampsia yet, but someone's blood pressure may be starting to increase as they get further along. I see that a lot with my PCOS patients because they have a tendency to both gestational diabetes and hypertension later in pregnancy. So they may call me at 30 weeks and say, hey, my blood pressure is starting to go up and my doctor is starting to get worried. Is there anything you can do? And there are plenty of things that we can do to help with gestational diabetes. It's a supply and demand thing. So diet is really a big part of helping to control gestational diabetes. But a lot of women are they have that in their DNA because they may have PCOS. I treat a lot of PCOS and so I see this happening frequently. That's a predisposition for hypertension as well as high cholesterol, but helping them kind of navigate those waters because a lot of these patients are already seeing maternal fetal medicine specialists if they've been through IVF and they don't want anything to rock the boat. And so when a flag comes up like gestational diabetes, then it's another possible intervention. And so I do try to help with that, but also coach them on their food.

Alexa Hulsey [00:24:10]:

With gestational diabetes, do you approach that as basically a deficiency of the spleen and stomach? I'm just thinking about how we think about it in Chinese medicine and I think about as the pregnancy progresses, more and more of the body's resources are going towards supporting the fetus and the development of the fetus. And so the baby gets all of the chi and blood and depletes the mother. Is that how you approach it then? Is just trying to supplement?

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:24:42]:

Yes, typically because pregnancy sets you up for deficiency. Like you said, they're little mooches, they'll take everything that you have.

Alexa Hulsey [00:24:58]:

They're snacking. Even before they're born, they're snacking.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:25:03]:

True, it's highly individualized, but yes, I do usually see that coming from a place of deficiency and usually young deficiency of the earth element, for sure. Sometimes it can be deficiency.

Alexa Hulsey [00:25:25]:

I feel like third trimester is also when people start having more pain because the baby is growing. This is when patients tend to have sciatica and lower back pain and hip pain and around ligament pain. And as we mentioned in the infertility episode, carpal tunnel too. And I think that's fascinating that carpal tunnel arises in pregnancy.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:25:51]:

Yeah, it's just a storm of inflammation. Yes, in a lot of ways for a lot of people. So have you seen Pups before?

Alexa Hulsey [00:26:02]:

Pups? No. What is pups?

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:26:05]:

Pups is late pregnancy rash that occurs all over the body. It's almost like the body is allergic to pregnancy. P-U-P-P-P-S. It's an acronym for I'm sorry. I can't remember. But that's very interesting.

Alexa Hulsey [00:26:25]:

I haven't seen that.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:26:27]:

Yeah, it's not rare, but it's something that I have found happens during late pregnancy and it's just a very itchy red rash that can sometimes cover the whole body during pregnancy. So that sort of thing. Lots of breach presentation babies come to my clinic. I work with moxabustion to help turn breach babies. And I mean, I tell patients it works about 50% of the time. It works about half the time depending on how much rain baby has. I don't try to help a patient turn a baby after 36 weeks unless I have confirmation that there's plenty of fluid and that I feel like the baby has been moving. And so sometimes babies are just head down. Sometimes babies flip around and go to transverse, and so that tells me that they have more room to move. So I'm real particular about whom I try to help. Acupuncture is not an aggressive way of helping turn a breach baby. It's more like a facilitation. And I tell people that I would definitely try it and go home and do moxavostion on myself after I teach them how. Before I would have an external version. External version means you are admitted to the hospital. They give you state all, which is a narcotic, so that you can deal with the pain and them forcibly turning the baby. And it just sounds scary and dangerous, but so does the C section. And so you got to weigh your options. Sometimes with pregnancy, we are faced with very tough decisions. And if the timing is right, I said, Come in, let's try it. I'll even work with it earlier. Like, I have a mom that's working on her third pregnancy under my care. This is her second baby to be breached, and she's 30 weeks. And she called me and she's like, I want to start doing the monster now. And I said, you can. But you remember with your second one, it flip flopped, that baby with a fish, back and forth, back and forth. And we couldn't keep up with it. But she did great and she had a vaginal delivery. But anyway, sometimes they know, like, I have this tool, I'm going to go ahead and start using it now, which is great.

Alexa Hulsey [00:29:19]:

Yes. And you talk about some of the other alternatives. I am always an advocate of let's start with the least aggressive intervention first, and that's acupuncture and mock sebustian. You were saying that it works about 50% of the time. I haven't tracked it, but I think that probably sounds about right for me. I founded one research study and it was published in 1998, so it's not all that recent. But they did moxa at bladder 67. So we do moxabustion, which is a warming technique, and it's done at a specific point. Bladder 67, that's a point on the pinky toe. So this study, they looked at the effects of moxa at bladder 67 and they did it at 33 weeks, and they did daily moxa for seven days, plus an additional seven days if the baby was still breach. And in the moxa group, 75% of babies were head down at birth, and in the control group, 62% were. So that's a pretty significant difference. When do you typically do Moxa and instruct patients to do it at home? And do you instruct them to do it every day? And for how long? And what are your instructions for that.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:30:47]:

So if I have the opportunity, I will treat the patient and do needle moxa on bladder 67. I usually do a side lying treatment and I will do some cycral points or if they have any pain, I'll address that. So I do warm needle moxa and then I send them home with the stick moxa. I use the smoky kind. I think that it's better than the smokeless. I do try to do my breach patients at the very end of the day so that the smoke doesn't bother anybody else because it can linger and it can bother some people. Nevertheless, I send them home and I tell them 15 minutes each toe every day if they can. And I usually take a sharpie and make a dot on the point and teach them how to find it with drawing a line. But you don't have to be quite so focused on the acupuncture point because the stick moxa is big and so you just generally aim towards the outer nail corner and you're going to do just fine. I also instruct them on not burning down their house. Yes, and I tell every one of them that I almost burned down my school clinic, caught a trash can on fire, and that the embers can last for a long time inside the moxa stick. And so you need a mug with sand in it because if you extinguish it with water, you're not going to be able to use the rest of the stick. You just got to help them care for the moxa as well and try to explain that it has a really strong smell and that it kind of must be a relative of cotton because it's got like this cottony texture to it. So anyway, moxa is fun. I love to use moxa, but in my clinic, I only do it at the end of the day for breach babies because I also have work neighbors, too, so I have to be mindful of that.

Alexa Hulsey [00:33:16]:

Another area that we see a lot in the third trimester is getting close to a patient's due date. A lot of patients want our help in having the type of birth that they envision and they want a natural childbirth. Let's talk about how acupuncture can support whatever type of birth a patient wants, whether it's a natural at home birth, whether it's whatever kind of birth that they want. Acupuncture can have a lot of benefits for cervical ripening and labor prep. So let's talk about how that works.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:34:02]:

So I like to use the word facilitation because a lot of times people call the clinic and say I need to be induced with acupuncture. That is a very Western concept of induction.

Alexa Hulsey [00:34:21]:

Yeah.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:34:21]:

And so that is kind of a forced labor. And with acupuncture, I don't feel like very much at all is forced. It's just helping guide the body to do what it's already geared to do. And so again, I typically will have the patient come in a series of times depending on is their physician starting to breathe heavy about their due date and what is a doctor saying about timeline and really communicating in a non judgmental place and not trying to drive their decisions, but to be a supportive part of their birth team? Because the physicians doula midwife. All of those are a team helping to bring a baby forth along with how the patient wants their birth to go. And so I'm, again, a backup singer, and I'm not center stage here. I am not driving this truck. The patient is. And so I try to meet them where they are, see them a series of times, like maybe the week before their due date. I'll see them on Monday, Wednesday, Friday kind of scenario. And if we're on a deadline and we have like a week or ten days, then I'll do a series of treatments. I do a sideline treatment, and I'll do electroacupuncture on the sacrum, and I will choose the forbidden points otherwise. And usually some calm the mind points because they're anxious about bringing forth this child. And so typically it can help. And I tell patients that we may not be able to have spontaneous labor with just acupuncture and everything else that they're probably doing, but it can really make an induction go a lot more smoothly. So I try to help them wrap their mind around not being an absolutist whenever it comes to their birth story, because I just think the absolutist in this life will kick your butt across the board. And so I want to support home birth, I want to support a hospital birth, whatever is best for that patient, I show up and support them from a non judgmental place. And I think that almost above everything else, is as much help as anything. If I get them before a week to ten days, I might start to do some softening treatments, especially if they have like, no cervical dilation and just starting to introduce those forbidden points, maybe what are their six or eight, I can't even remember. But not like a slow roll into all the points eventually as we get closer, but just helping them to, again, take a step back, have 30 minutes of peace and just relax the body is very helpful. So that's how I really love to see it, is with a little homework done before we actually bring out the big guns, which are not really that big. Yeah, electroacupuncture is like the most aggressive form of acupuncture besides dry needling, but that's a whole other subject.

Alexa Hulsey [00:38:15]:

Yes. Thinking about labor prep and labor facilitation, I was looking into some studies. I found a study that was published in 2001, and they did acupuncture every day at two of the forbidden points. So they used large intestine four, which is on the hand in the fleshy area between the thumb and the forefinger, and. They used spleen six, which is on the medial lower leg. And so they did these two points every day, starting on the patient's due date, and they waited ten days. And if the patient hadn't delivered after ten days, then labor was induced. So on average, women in the acupuncture group delivered their baby five days after their estimated due date, and patients in the control group delivered 7.9 days after their estimated due date. So that's almost a three day difference.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:39:14]:

That's interesting. I had not heard that study.

Alexa Hulsey [00:39:17]:

And then they had another finding. They looked at those patients who were induced. Labor was induced with oxytocin in 20% of patients in the acupuncture group and in 35% of patients in the control group. So that's a significant difference.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:39:35]:

That is significant. I like that.

Alexa Hulsey [00:39:37]:

Yeah, I do too. I'll put a link to that study and the other one I mentioned in the show notes so that people can take a look. It's pretty interesting. Yeah. I want to talk about pregnancy loss because a lot of our patients have experienced a loss. It's estimated that 10% to 20% of known pregnancies end in a miscarriage. So this is something that a lot of people go through, and some of our patients experience recurrent losses. And if they've struggled with infertility a pregnancy loss, it just feels like another blow on top of everything else. So I'd like to hear what's your approach when you're working with these patients who have experienced a loss or they're worried about a possible miscarriage?

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:40:25]:

Well, I feel like this medicine really shines for recurrent pregnancy loss. And there's so many variables that it's hard to even nutshell. It really but if someone has had recurrent pregnancy loss, I want to make sure that they have had every single test run by a Western doctor. Thrombophilias or blood clotting diseases is a big issue oftentimes overlooked until someone has had three losses. Genetics, Karyotype, anatomical issues with the uterus, septum, polyps. I want these patients to be combed over very thoroughly. And that's why I love working with the reproductive endocrinologist that I work with, because he is the most thorough and he understands that pregnancy loss is really a special kind of hell. And it's followed closely in the clinic that the IVF clinic where I work. And he tells me, dr. Hans tells me that when patients have recurrent pregnancy loss, following them closely, meaning regular ultrasounds, can be a really big help to kind of ferry them through those crucial first couple of weeks. And so I really like the collaboration with Western medicine whenever it comes to recurrent pregnancy loss because there are so many things that I don't feel like acupuncture can do much about, like an anatomical issue. ectopics and tubal disorders. I am not going to masquerade as a practitioner that can help clear your tubes if you have blocked tubes. I'm just real straightforward whenever it comes to what I can and cannot help with. And so I want them to have a very thorough work up with a reproductive endocrinologist. And from there, I will usually try to help them conceive, but I might ask them to wait to try to conceive, to try to kind of refill the well. Because sometimes these women have just had them back to back to back losses and they're coming from a place of deficiency because they try so hard and then they get there and then their hopes are dashed. So it takes like it's a grieving process for the body and spirit. And so I want to make sure that they grieve that appropriately and then try to get them above board as far as their health is. Because in my mind, in Chinese medicine, if you're having losses, that is the epitome of a deficiency.

Alexa Hulsey [00:43:55]:

Yeah.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:43:56]:

And so from there, I don't do a real rigorous schedule for my fertility patients. They're usually career driven, et cetera. So I will see them maybe two or three times a cycle, help to get them back to board, above board, and then say, okay, I think it's time for you all to start trying. And I don't tell everybody to wait. Some people aren't going to wait, but that's okay, too. They just might experience another loss. Right, yeah, you frame it that way. And sometimes people are like, oh, maybe that's right. Anyway, once they get pregnant and I usually tell people three to six months for acupuncture, and then if they get pregnant, I want to see them until they get past their threshold, and that's usually weekly. So that's how I approach recurrent pregnancy loss.

Alexa Hulsey [00:45:07]:

It's one of those things that is so heartbreaking to treat sometimes, and yet it's such an honor and a joy when we are able to help walk with the patient through that and pass their threshold. It's an exciting time, too. We're just lucky that we get to do that.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:45:34]:

I know. To be a witness, I tell people I'm here for good news and bad news.

Alexa Hulsey [00:45:39]:

Yeah, exactly. Well, one other thing about pregnancy as a patient is getting close to the end of their pregnancy. They'll often ask how soon they can come back in after the baby is born, and I'll usually tell them, come in as soon as you feel like getting out of the house.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:45:55]:

Yeah.

Alexa Hulsey [00:45:57]:

So briefly, let's talk about acupuncture in the postnatal period. What are some of the benefits of doing acupuncture after the baby's born?

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:46:06]:

Well, lactation is one that I have treated many times to help with milk supply, and there are experts in that field as well. And helping patients connect with a lactation specialist is a big deal for me. I know that when I had my children, I needed one and they can be a godsend. And so I try to connect people because it takes a village sometimes to help women around childbirth, a perinatal period. And I do, I have had women bring newborns in nursing their baby, getting their Acupuncture, because even postnatal having tendonitis, like trying to nurse your baby and your thumbs not work that's really hard. I'm thinking of one patient in particular. But again, if they can leave the baby in the care of someone else, it gives them that respite that break. And new moms need that so much, even if it's nothing more than the Acumen.

Alexa Hulsey [00:47:20]:

That's right.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:47:21]:

Blood pressure again, can be wonky after childbirth. So trying to help even that out, just really trying to give back to the body so that they can have less likelihood of postpartum depression or anxiety. So if that patient was walking into this pregnancy with anxiety and infertility, then having the baby is also going to do the same thing.

Alexa Hulsey [00:47:50]:

Yes.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:47:50]:

Then they have to take care of this baby and they don't know how. And all of that is a learning curve. And so helping them tap into their intuition and instinct and reminding them that they have those things yes.

Alexa Hulsey [00:48:10]:

And just replenishing. I feel like what has been depleted during pregnancy and childbirth, it's not easy on the body.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:48:19]:

No.

Alexa Hulsey [00:48:20]:

One of the things that I love about treating pregnant patients is that patients will often report a lot of fetal.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:48:29]:

Activity during babies love Acupuncture.

Alexa Hulsey [00:48:32]:

Babies love acupuncture.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:48:34]:

Isn't that funny? It is funny.

Alexa Hulsey [00:48:36]:

They move around so much during acupuncture. And this is an argument that I like to use whenever someone says, oh, acupuncture is just a placebo because the placebo effect does not work on a fetus.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:48:52]:

No.

Alexa Hulsey [00:48:53]:

So acupuncture moves chi and the fetus feels that and then moves in response. Acupuncture is doing something to stimulate that fetal activity. So yeah, I think that's very interesting.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:49:09]:

It is the placebo effect as well. Animals are not persuaded by placebo.

Alexa Hulsey [00:49:17]:

They are not.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:49:18]:

And veterinary acupuncture works great.

Alexa Hulsey [00:49:20]:

Yes. Both my dogs have had veterinary acupuncture. I also love treating pregnant patients because these are some of the best see, these are some of my best acupuncture stories. I've had patients, if their water has broken during a treatment when they are sitting in the chair resting. We had one patient at my clinic who had her baby in the car after acupuncture on the way to the hospital. So acupuncture can work very quickly sometimes.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:49:54]:

I had that same experience. A friend of mine, like a dear friend of mine was due and she came to my house because it was Labor Day, my clinic was closed and I gave her a treatment and she went into labor at my house on Labor Day. On Labor Day. And I had to throw her into the back of my Forerunner, race her to the hospital. And I lived like 40 minutes away from the hospital and she was laboring on her hands and knees in the backseat of my Forerunner.

Alexa Hulsey [00:50:28]:

Oh my gosh.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:50:29]:

Luckily, we coalesced with her husband at the emergency room. It was such a funny story. She had the baby 45 minutes later, but we made it to the hospital. Oh, yeah, gosh, it can happen quickly.

Alexa Hulsey [00:50:42]:

Wow, that's a good story.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:50:44]:

It was fun. And I get to see that kid running around. He's like, ten now. It's crazy.

Alexa Hulsey [00:50:50]:

Now, do you ever treat any of the babies of the parents that you.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:50:55]:

Treated while they were pregnant in Memphis? When we worked together, I had a bad experience treating a six year old, and the mom really wanted the child to have acupuncture, and the baby was terrified. And I was caught in the middle, and I did not feel good about giving acupuncture to someone that could not consent. And so I kind of had this rule that unless they were super bright ten year old that could really understand what I was doing and have a conversation with me about it, then I wasn't likely to do that until I had a very desperate mother of a newborn call me. And she had labor trauma shoulder dystopia where the baby was caught in the birth canal. It was a large baby, and as the baby was exiting, the shoulders got caught, and the physician had to pull on the baby's head to get the baby to come out. And it gave the child Brachoplexis syndrome, where it damaged the nerve and paralyzed one of the baby's arms.

Alexa Hulsey [00:52:16]:

Wow.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:52:18]:

And so this mom called me and was desperate because the baby was just like three months old. And at a year old, they said that the baby would have to have a nerve graft.

Alexa Hulsey [00:52:32]:

Oh, my gosh.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:52:34]:

And you may have noticed just in your observations, people with a withered right or left arm that everything else seemed okay with the person, but they had some type of paralysis or palsy, and so that's probably a patient that had Brachope plexus syndrome. So I said, I have never treated an infant before. I'm going to have to do some research. But she was so desperate, and I knew that the baby had no feeling in their arm, and that somehow made me feel better about treating the baby because I certainly don't want to hurt an infant. So again, I was working at another clinic that I did not own, and this woman lived south of me. And so I said, come to my house because I don't know if this baby is going to scream.

Alexa Hulsey [00:53:25]:

Right.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:53:26]:

I don't want to be disruptive. I also want to be very focused. And so I had a treatment room set up at my house. And so she brought the baby and Harper and treated little harper grandmother was there. She actually filmed it. And I remember a lot of it was ulnar. Like, you could tell that the small intestine and heart meridian were most affected. And I did small intestine three, and the baby's arm shot out to its side.

Alexa Hulsey [00:54:02]:

Whoa.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:54:03]:

It was like an involuntary reflex. And the grandmother and the mother looked at me, and the grandmother started crying, and I was like, well, that did something. But with infant acupuncture, it's in and out. So the baby wasn't retaining the needles. I did stimulate it. So anyway, that baby came back to me maybe five times in a pretty short period of time, and she regained full mobility.

Alexa Hulsey [00:54:33]:

Amazing.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:54:34]:

I mean, I was blown away myself. I'm like, I don't even know how that happened. Remarkably, this woman's cousin had the same issue with her little boy, and he had the same thing. And he came to see me a little older, and we were able to get him to recover a lot of his. But I think because he came later, I think he was maybe eight or ten months, we weren't able to regain everything. And he still had to have a procedure, but not a nerve. Graph.

Alexa Hulsey [00:55:11]:

Wow.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:55:12]:

Yeah. So that would be the only time that I would really be interested in treating an infant. I tell people that pediatrics is like pediatrics. It's a whole other realm it is. Of treatment, and you have to have really kind of a facility that's geared towards kids, and I'm just not there, but I'll make exceptions.

Alexa Hulsey [00:55:33]:

Yeah.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:55:34]:

Wow.

Alexa Hulsey [00:55:35]:

Before we wrap up, any final thoughts for our pregnant listeners out there, or listeners who want to become pregnant and are curious about doing acupuncture during their pregnancy, any final thoughts or advice for those folks?

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:55:51]:

I think knowing, for those that are trying to conceive, that you have the capacity to do it yourself with improvement of your own fertility. So, like we talked last time, that Making Babies book by Jill Blakeway. I really love that book because it's very empowering, it's very teaching for a lay person to try and understand how Chinese medicine can address your fertility issues and helping them understand. They kind of have categories in that book, and Jill really does a good job of breaking it down to where you're stuck or you're tired or they're able to identify with their own symptoms and be able to understand. Okay, this is my chapter. I'm stuck. Liver, chief stagnation. I'm stuck. And so I'm going to look at this chapter, and I'm going to participate in this, because oftentimes people expect things to just be done for them, and that is not how Chinese medicine it can work if you're a bystander. But if you participate and you have a mental construct of the girders of acupuncture, just meaning understanding a little bit more about yin and yong and she and blood and dampness and and I'm sad that I can't sit and explain all of this to everybody.

Alexa Hulsey [00:57:33]:

Yeah.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:57:34]:

But I tell them, you know, if you participate and, you know, you read this dietary recommendations document, this is not a diet, but these foods are going to be extra special for you. And you take care of yourself and you move your body and you do your meditation or go to church or whatever it is that gives back to the Spirit. Because so many people put their life on hold, job decisions, vacations, everything, trying to conceive that they get lost in the mire. And so trying to help them live in the moment, I think is a big and important thing to do for these patients, because they just get so caught up that you have to help them kind of downshift and get back in their bodies.

Alexa Hulsey [00:58:27]:

Yeah, that's good advice for all of us. Downshift and get back in your body. And Acupuncture is really good at helping you with that effortless. Effortless. Exactly. And just show up.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:58:40]:

Show up and let me take care of you.

Alexa Hulsey [00:58:42]:

Exactly. Well, once again, Jerusia, this has been such an enlightening conversation. Remind folks where they can keep up with you and your work and get in touch with you.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:58:57]:

Sure thing. Social media Sprouted Heart acupuncture website, sprouted heartacupuncture.com. And I'm still hiring. So if an acupuncturist out there wanting to come to this beautiful, great state and work in depth with pregnancy, fertility, postpartum all things women related, and men, too, then let me know.

Alexa Hulsey [00:59:28]:

Yeah, there's a lot of need in Mississippi.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:59:30]:

There is.

Alexa Hulsey [00:59:31]:

Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me today.

Jerusha DeGroote Stephens [00:59:35]:

Thanks, Alexa. It's always fun.

Alexa Hulsey [00:59:40]:

Thank you for listening to today's episode of Notes From Your Acupuncturist. If you liked what you heard, please follow this show, leave a rating or.

Alexa Hulsey [00:59:48]:

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Alexa Hulsey [00:59:50]:

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Alexa Hulsey [01:00:10]:

You too can become a paid subscriber.

Alexa Hulsey [01:00:12]:

For just a few dollars a month. Just head over to Substac.com and search Notes From Your Acupuncturist or click the link in the show Notes. Until next time, this is Alexa Bradley Hulsey, your Acupuncturist sign, signing off with love and gratitude.