Ep. 7: Faune Towery on Acupuncture for Kids and Teens

00:00 Welcome to Notes from Your Acupuncturist, the podcast for anyone who's interested in

acupuncture, complementary medicine, holistic health, and self-care.

I'm your host, Alexa Bradley-Hulsey.

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Okay, on with the show.

00:55 Today on the podcast, I'm joined by licensed acupuncturist, Faune Towery.

Faune practices at Napa Acupuncture Practice, a nonprofit community acupuncture clinic in

Napa, California.

She has been a community acupuncturist for 10 years and has given over 50,000 treatments

in her career so far.

Today Faune and I are going to talk about acupuncture for a very special segment of the population,

kids and teenagers.

01:23 This is something that I get asked about pretty regularly.

And the short answer is yes, acupuncture is absolutely great for kids and teens.

So I'm excited to talk more about it with Faune.

Faune, welcome.

Thank you, Alexa.

I'm glad to be here.

Yeah, thank you for joining me.

01:42 So as I've, as I've been collecting my thoughts in preparation for this episode, I've been

01:47 thinking back to the first time I ever heard of acupuncture.

01:51 And I remember it very clearly, and I was in the fourth grade.

01:54 So I want to start by asking you, do you remember how old you were when you first learned about

02:01 acupuncture?

02:02 I know I was in elementary school because I grew up with an uncle who treated horses

02:08 with acupuncture needles.

02:10 Oh, cool.

02:11 And he was telling a story about how he would go to horse shows on the weekends.

02:16 And there would be a horse that was having trouble with pooping or peeing.

02:20 And he would make bets that he could get the animal to either pee or poop if they were

02:24 clogged up.

02:25 And then he would use acupuncture needles and make them go and then he'd get himself

02:29 free lunch.

02:30 And so he was getting himself a bit of a reputation for, you know, swindling people out of lunch

02:36 by helping their animals with acupuncture.

02:39 And I was like, wow, that's kind of scary.

02:42 Something can make you do that.

02:44 Yes, that's that's what I remember.

02:47 What do you remember?

02:48 I remember I was in fourth grade.

02:51 I was in it was in Mrs. Carpenter's social studies class.

02:56 And she brought in a magazine.

03:02 And I don't I think maybe it was a Time magazine.

03:04 But on the cover of the magazine was their cover story was about acupuncture.

03:11 And on the cover was a close up of a person's face.

03:15 And they had a bunch of acupuncture needles in their face.

03:19 And our teacher brought this magazine in to show us that this was a type of medicine that

03:25 originated in China and that they use these needles as medicine.

03:32 And of course, we were all very fascinated by it.

03:35 I remember.

03:38 And she said, you know, the needles are really small, that it doesn't hurt.

03:42 And I remember, you know, I could see on the magazine cover.

03:46 Yes, those needles are very small.

03:48 They don't look like they would hurt that much.

03:50 But I was very concerned about blood.

03:54 Because I was afraid of blood as a kid.

03:56 And I would pass out in the doctor's office if I ever saw blood.

04:00 And so I just remember thinking, Oh my gosh, how much blood is there going to be when they

04:04 take all those needles out?

04:06 Is that person gonna have a bloody face?

04:09 I love it.

04:12 Yeah, but that was my first introduction to acupuncture.

04:17 It stayed with me all of these years, because it just was so fascinating.

04:22 And to think that there was no medicine, and she said there's no medicine in the needles.

04:26 And to think that medicine could be practiced without something being injected, without

04:32 you ingesting a substance was just fascinating.

04:35 Yeah, it really is.

04:37 It is amazing.

04:38 Even to this day, people still ask, you know, what's on the needles?

04:40 How do they work?

04:41 Yes, yes, yes, there's nothing on the needles.

04:45 Yeah, so I find that kids have some interesting questions about acupuncture and ideas about

04:53 acupuncture.

04:54 Do you treat a lot of kids and teens in your practice?

04:57 I do and it tends to go in in like, bursts of like before school started, I had a ton

05:05 of kids who were really nervous about going back to school, and especially during the

05:09 pandemic when they weren't in school in person for so long.

05:12 And then they went back to being in person.

05:14 So many of them had anxiety, because they hadn't been with other kids their age for,

05:19 you know, such a long time.

05:21 So like the summer before the first couple of weeks, I was treating lots of kids.

05:28 And that's how that's how they started out the school year by that.

05:33 But the other thing is, like, they'll do like, I don't know what the right way to say it

05:39 is like people who invade the school drills.

05:42 And so those cause a lot of anxiety.

05:45 Yeah, fear for students.

05:47 And so they'll come in either knowing that's going to happen or afterwards being upset

05:52 about it.

05:53 So that's another time when, when I see like a rush of kids, I was talking with my husband

05:58 about this.

05:59 And he said, Do you remember when you first started and you had a rush of teen girls?

06:04 And like, Oh, yeah, one broke up with her boyfriend.

06:08 And I helped her with acupuncture for the breakup.

06:11 And then she sent me her friend and her friend and her friend.

06:15 And so the week I treated five teenage girls who had broken up with their boyfriend.

06:19 Oh, my gosh, really cool.

06:21 Because you know, it helped the first one and then it helped the second one.

06:24 So by the end of the week, I was like, man, how many breaks happened in one week?

06:29 You know, the fact that they knew that it worked and that they sent me their friends

06:32 was really cute.

06:33 So that's what I like about it.

06:35 You know, when it works for kids, it's just amazing.

06:39 The other the other story I remember from my my career was I saw a young man who was

06:46 in a wheelchair.

06:48 And I was a brand new acupuncturist.

06:49 It was my first year.

06:50 And I was really nervous that I wouldn't be able to help him because he was in horrible,

06:54 horrible back pain in his wheelchair.

06:56 And I was like, Okay.

06:58 So I put a few needles around his elbows on each side.

07:02 And I was like, does it feel any better?

07:05 And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about.

07:06 You haven't done anything for me.

07:07 And I was like, Oh, no.

07:09 So that a couple weeks passed.

07:10 And I'm like, Oh, you know, I feel really bad that he wasn't helped.

07:14 But then his mom brings him in again.

07:16 And like, Hey, how's it going?

07:17 How's your back?

07:18 And he's like, what back?

07:19 He's like, I'm here for acne.

07:20 Remember, you weren't like debilitating, horrible back pain.

07:26 You can't even remember that.

07:27 And it was such a good learning moment for me because I was like, of course, like kids

07:32 get better and they don't even remember like, you know, how it was before.

07:36 Cause that's not their new reality.

07:39 And I also remember thinking, man, that's amazing.

07:42 Like I thought I hadn't done anything and he was so much better and his life was so

07:46 much better.

07:47 And then, you know, to get to treat him for a new thing, but it was just such a wonderful

07:51 memory for me of, of him not even remembering how much pain he was in.

07:56 So that was, that was fun for me.

07:59 That's great.

08:00 When, when we can help someone to the point that they don't even remember the problem

08:05 that they originally came in for.

08:06 I feel like that happens with adults too.

08:08 Oh, absolutely.

08:09 That's why we take notes and we go back and we're like, Oh, do you remember this?

08:12 And they're like, no, I'm like, Oh, it's written down that you had that.

08:15 Oh yeah, that's all gone now.

08:19 So let's talk about some of the conditions that you tend to treat kids for.

08:25 So you mentioned anxiety is a big one in your practice.

08:29 Yes.

08:30 What else?

08:31 More serious things have happened over the past.

08:34 I would definitely say since the pandemic, people with really serious mental health stuff,

08:39 like thoughts of self harm, people who are not eating, people who have eating disorders,

08:47 people who have, so I don't like to use official labels.

08:51 So I use more generic terms like people who have trouble concentrating, people who have

08:56 trouble staying still, people who have trouble with like repetitive behaviors kind of thing.

09:02 Like sometimes people will like pick their fingernails and their cuticles until they

09:06 bleed.

09:07 That kind of stuff is all stuff that can really be helped with acupuncture.

09:12 So a lot of that conditions that have an emotional root but are manifesting physically.

09:16 Exactly.

09:17 I see that too.

09:19 I see that with anxiety, a recent patient comes to mind.

09:24 She's a teenager and has been having some difficulty swallowing and therefore she has

09:28 having difficulty eating and her anxiety is really high.

09:33 And I talked to her about it and I said, I think your body's just telling you like you

09:37 literally can't take anymore.

09:39 You cannot take on anymore.

09:42 You've had so much stress over the last couple of years.

09:46 Your body is saying no more, I can't take in anything else.

09:50 I can't take on anything else.

09:52 And it's unfortunate to see that becoming more and more prevalent in young people.

09:57 Well, it's really sad and it's scary too.

10:00 And especially for parents, they just want to be able to help their kid.

10:04 And I think that's what's so exciting about acupuncture.

10:06 Like I like to tease that if I only treated kids, I wouldn't be able to stay in business

10:11 because it only takes them a very short amount of time to, you know, feel better, which is

10:17 really exciting.

10:18 But it also, you know, it would be, it would require a lot bigger patient base to be able

10:25 to only treat kids.

10:26 Right.

10:27 You could, well, if there were more breakups going around, then you could stay in business.

10:32 Well, yeah, let's talk about some of the differences between treating kids versus treating adults.

10:40 Yeah.

10:41 You don't just, we don't approach them in the same way, really.

10:45 Definitely not.

10:46 For me, treating kids, I don't have children.

10:50 So I always tell that to people so that they know that like I'm coming from a different

10:56 perspective than someone who does have kids.

10:59 But I like treating kids and I think it's a lot of fun for me.

11:03 And you know, I'm around kids, I have nieces and nephews.

11:06 But the most important thing to me is that they feel comfortable.

11:10 And I get really frustrated when patients, like I had one patient who the parents tricked

11:15 them into coming, and they didn't know they were coming.

11:18 And I was like, they wanted me to put needles in.

11:20 And I'm like, No, I am not going to put needles into a kid who doesn't want me to put needles

11:23 in.

11:24 I said, you know, I'll put seeds and I'll teach them where to push for acupressure.

11:28 And you know, I'll do all the other things, but I'm not going to put needles into a kid

11:31 who doesn't want them.

11:33 The other thing is, I think we do ourselves a disservice by calling them needles.

11:37 Because if you've ever had a vaccine or a flu shot or something, that's 16 times as

11:43 big as ours.

11:44 16 of our needles can fit into one of their needles.

11:47 So it really isn't isn't a traditional needle in any sense, I tell them it's as fine as

11:52 a human hair.

11:54 And we have so many other ways to be able to help you besides just regular needles.

11:59 There's herbs, there's ear seeds, there's intradermal needles, there's something fancy

12:04 called a Shonishin, which is a metal device that you use just to hold pressure on one

12:11 of the local acupuncture points.

12:13 And you know, I can teach kids how to rub their ears to help them.

12:17 You know, there's emotional freedom technique, which is where you tap on different acupuncture

12:21 points on your body just for yourself.

12:24 So there's never a reason to do something that they don't want us to do.

12:28 But a lot of times, kids will be curious because you know, we treat it in a group setting,

12:33 and they'll see all the other people around them.

12:35 And they'll see that they have needles in and they see that the people are sleeping.

12:39 And they're like, Well, you know, if they're sleeping, they're obviously not hurting.

12:42 And they're not, you know, upset because they're sound asleep.

12:46 Maybe I'll try one and then you do one.

12:48 And if they like it, maybe we'll do another one.

12:50 And if they don't, we just take it out.

12:52 But at least then they've had the experience if they want it.

12:56 And you know, right, hopefully it's a positive experience.

12:59 And, you know, even if they're not willing to do it, then then at least they have a positive

13:03 connotation for the future.

13:05 Right.

13:06 And it sounds like you do a lot of education to Yeah, definitely.

13:09 A lot of education for self care.

13:12 Yeah.

13:13 And the other thing is, you know, it's a totally different population.

13:16 Like I use very few needles.

13:19 And I keep them in for a very short amount of time.

13:22 And like I treated the baby who was like 14 months old for constipation.

13:27 I tickled his belly.

13:28 I put a couple needles in.

13:29 I tickled his belly, I took them out.

13:30 And that was it, you know, like it took me what 30 seconds to be able to do that.

13:35 And you know, it really helped.

13:36 Yeah, I feel like the dosage needed for a kid is lower than what would be needed for

13:43 an adult.

13:44 Yeah, it was with any kind of medication.

13:47 Absolutely.

13:48 An adult might need 20 needles and an hour of rest time to really help their body rebalance

13:56 in the course of a treatment.

13:57 And a kid might need two needles and two minutes.

14:01 Yeah, it's pretty amazing.

14:04 One of my favorite I think it was it might have been well, other than my nieces and nephews,

14:08 I think it was the first child who came to my clinic had a headache that had lasted for

14:14 more than 70 days.

14:16 Oh my gosh, awful.

14:18 He was so dizzy and sick.

14:20 He couldn't even sleep in his bed, because he said sleeping in his bed made it worse.

14:25 And I was like, Oh, no, what am I gonna do?

14:27 Like, this is awful.

14:29 And so I was like, Okay, just started the basics do liver three.

14:32 So it's a point on your foot.

14:34 And I did one point on one needle.

14:35 And he's like, that's so much better.

14:38 And then I did the other foot.

14:39 And then he was like, Oh my gosh, it's gone.

14:41 And his mother's like, Who are you?

14:42 And what did you do to my child?

14:46 And so it lasted for a couple of weeks.

14:49 And then he came back because it started to come again.

14:51 And we did the same two points again.

14:53 And it's really she that family has brought me so many patients throughout all the years.

14:59 It was just such a miracle for him that he felt so much better.

15:02 And it was such a simple fix.

15:05 But in Chinese medicine, like it was the perfect solution that you know, Western medicine wasn't

15:09 able to do anything.

15:10 So those are the kind of examples where it makes me so happy.

15:14 And it's so rewarding to treat kids because they get better so quickly.

15:18 And you know, it's so non invasive and, you know, helps them in so many different ways.

15:24 Right.

15:25 And you're really setting a young person on a trajectory that they might not have been

15:31 set on if they hadn't tried acupuncture, you know, thinking about a young person that has

15:36 a headache for 70 days.

15:38 They're in for a lot of tests and trying a lot of different medications.

15:43 Yeah, a lot of doctors appointments.

15:45 None of them worked.

15:46 Yeah, none of them worked.

15:47 And yeah, you can resolve it with a few needles and a few minutes.

15:52 I mean, that is really, it's so exciting.

15:55 It really is.

15:56 It really is exciting.

15:57 And it's it's life changing.

15:59 Absolutely.

16:01 What is the youngest patient you've ever treated?

16:04 Do you know?

16:05 14 months, 14 months.

16:06 Yeah, it was that 14 month old you're treating for constipation for constipation.

16:11 And honestly, I think I think that they probably could have done it with just you know, like

16:17 massaging the belly at that young of an age or just plain old acupressure.

16:22 But you know, the baby didn't even know he had acupuncture.

16:26 So yeah, is pretty neat to be able to see how it can work so easily and so quickly on

16:32 someone so little.

16:34 I think that the youngest patient I ever treated I think was six weeks old.

16:38 I mean, wow, a really young baby who was having some respiratory issues.

16:45 Okay.

16:46 And so I did just a couple needles on the upper back the the lung shoe points on the

16:53 upper back one on each side, barely inserted that I mean, right, like hardly even the idea

17:00 of the needle.

17:01 Exactly.

17:02 And then just a couple little twists of stimulation and then remove the needle.

17:08 And then I showed the the mom acupressure.

17:11 That's one of the things that I love too is being able to show parents how they can administer

17:17 acupressure, some of these massage techniques or ear seeds or what have you at home, because

17:24 then the parents feel maybe not such a sense of helplessness over their child.

17:30 Right, they're empowered to help their kid.

17:32 Yeah.

17:33 And if the kid is old enough, they're empowered to help themselves too.

17:35 Yeah, absolutely.

17:36 You can give them those tools.

17:37 And I think it still releases the endorphins too, which are you know, the body's way of

17:42 making you feel good.

17:44 Yeah, absolutely.

17:45 And I just think it's interesting to see how much quicker it happens in kids.

17:49 A few minutes, a few treatments, whereas Yeah, an adult we're treating for headache might

17:53 need a lot of treatments.

17:55 Right?

17:56 Kid doesn't need that many.

17:58 And you know, I want I people always ask me why why is it that kids get better so much

18:03 faster?

18:04 And I don't honestly know I have a theory that it's because they haven't had it for

18:08 as long because, you know, when you're, you know, a teenager, how long could you have

18:12 had something for, you know, versus adults who are like, I've had back pain for 40 years,

18:17 you know, right.

18:19 But I also think like, kids are just more active, and they have more of the natural

18:26 chi that they were born with so that they're able to rectify themselves easier than adults.

18:31 Yeah, I think that is a good theory.

18:34 But kids are so young, you know, like you said, they're so active, they're, they're

18:38 always moving, they're always growing, they're always changing.

18:41 And so I feel like this young energy is just constantly circulating through them and around

18:47 them and revitalizing them and revitalizing them.

18:51 So things change quickly.

18:52 They don't get like bogged down with like the heaviness of the the years of just living

19:01 that adults do.

19:03 So it really works to their advantage.

19:05 You know, we always say the earlier you start getting acupuncture for a condition, the better.

19:10 Yeah, absolutely.

19:11 And it's kind of the same thing with like, the younger you are, when you start getting

19:15 acupuncture, then the better it is for your health in the long term.

19:20 I used to run a booth at the farmers market on Saturdays.

19:25 And I loved it because little kids would walk by with their parents and they would point

19:29 and they'd be like, what's that?

19:31 And they, you know, they had no idea what it was.

19:33 And that was what I loved about doing that was because it brought it to the people, right?

19:37 It wasn't something scary.

19:39 It wasn't super expensive.

19:40 It was free.

19:42 People could see it happening, you know, and that they the kids could see their parents

19:46 getting better and that people were feeling good.

19:49 And it wasn't scary.

19:51 Nobody was screaming.

19:52 There was no blood.

19:53 Right, right.

19:54 And so that to me, that was the best thing about that.

19:59 Those events was it brought it to the people and made it not scary and not something that

20:03 was super expensive and luxurious.

20:06 It's just a daily mode of being able to help yourself through acupuncture.

20:12 How do you feel like kids typically respond to the idea of acupuncture?

20:18 I think a lot of times they're scared.

20:20 I'm always I'm always impressed when a kid comes in and they're curious or like they're

20:24 excited.

20:25 But it also depends upon how the parent presents it.

20:28 So if the parent has had acupuncture and has had positive experiences, then the kids are

20:32 like, I want to come.

20:33 I want to come.

20:34 I can't tell you how many parents are like, I told them they cannot come this time, but

20:38 I'll be able to come.

20:40 And then every time afterwards, the kids begging to come and she's like, well, there's nothing

20:44 wrong with you.

20:45 I don't care.

20:46 I want to go just because it makes them feel good.

20:49 Whereas if the parents like trepidatious and doesn't understand it and, you know, is just

20:53 doing it because, you know, someone told them to or it's their last resort.

20:57 They're a lot more concerned and cautious and uncertain about it.

21:02 And then that transfers to the kid as well.

21:05 So I think a lot of times if you are looking to have it done for your child, it's a great

21:10 idea to do it yourself or to get it done together for the first time.

21:15 But honestly, if you have it beforehand and then you can tell them that it was not painful

21:19 and what the experience was like, they will trust you a lot better.

21:23 And that's all the time the kids come in with their parents for the first visit.

21:30 And then, you know, in the future, you know, even if they can't drive themselves, as long

21:34 as the parents have given permission, they can just get a ride or walk to acupuncture

21:39 and get it in the future.

21:40 Because then kids like to be able to be independent and being able to go to acupuncture by themselves

21:46 makes them feel like they're more adult like.

21:49 So I think that's a neat thing, too.

21:51 Exactly.

21:52 And taking ownership of their health.

21:53 Exactly.

21:54 I always think it's helpful for kids to see an acupuncture treatment first before they

22:00 get one.

22:01 Yeah.

22:02 So I will encourage a parent if a parent has a child who they are interested in bringing

22:08 in for acupuncture, I will often encourage them to just bring bring your child in with

22:13 you for your treatment.

22:14 Your child can sit in the chair next to you and watch and can see what it's like and they

22:19 can ask me questions and you know, they can just get a sense of the whole experience.

22:26 Right.

22:27 Without worrying about being jabbed by a needle.

22:30 Right.

22:31 And then they get to see, you know, who you are and that you're not a scary person and

22:35 that you don't want to hurt them.

22:36 And yeah, the other thing is I really like to use intradermals with kids.

22:41 Do you ever use intradermals?

22:42 I don't.

22:43 So let's talk about intradermals because I know what they are, but I hardly ever use

22:46 them.

22:47 Yeah, why don't you explain what they are and how you use them.

22:51 So I always use an alcohol swab because it gets the natural skin oils off the skin so

22:56 that they stick a lot better.

22:58 So they're the brand I use is made by a company called Sarin and there's a plastic disc on

23:03 the inside and it's smaller than the tip of your finger.

23:09 It's like a little piece of beige colored tape and there's a plastic disc on the inside

23:15 and within the disc is a tiny needle.

23:17 And when you show it to people, they can't actually see it.

23:19 Now kids sometimes can see it.

23:21 It's point one, one of a millimeter.

23:23 Very good eyesight.

23:24 They have a really good eyesight, but it's point one, one of a millimeter.

23:28 So that means it's, it's, you know, finger is one millimeter.

23:32 Fingernail is one millimeter.

23:33 Like it's that small, right?

23:35 So like it doesn't cause any discomfort.

23:39 They can't even tell when you put it on, but there is something there.

23:42 They're like, are you sure there's something?

23:44 Yes, I'm sure there's something there.

23:46 And then they can leave them on for several days.

23:49 The thing with kids is they tend to get dirty quickly.

23:52 So whereas adults can leave them on for more days with kids, they tend to get dirty quickly.

23:57 And so they don't stay on as well, but they definitely can stay on for, you know, more

24:02 than, than just a day.

24:04 So people like them for that reason.

24:06 And then like if they're on the ears, you can sleep in them and they don't cause any

24:10 issues.

24:11 I like to use the point on the wrist, pericardium six to open the chest and treat anxiety.

24:17 And it helps with like difficulty swallowing and promotes feeling of calm.

24:21 Nausea is another one that a lot of kids have trouble with like digestive issues.

24:26 Yeah, absolutely.

24:27 Their tummy gets upset and they don't want to eat.

24:30 And then the parents are worried because they're not eating, but then when they eat, it makes

24:33 their tummy feel worse.

24:34 So anything we can do to help with digestive issues.

24:38 And I think most of the time they're just related to emotions.

24:41 Yeah.

24:42 Pericardium six is a great one for an intradermal, I would think because that that point can

24:46 be a little sensitive when needled.

24:48 Absolutely.

24:49 And there's a nerve close to the surface of the skin at pericardium six.

24:53 So if you needle someone too deeply, especially a child, it could be painful, but an intradermal

24:59 needle, they're not going to feel it at all.

25:01 Yeah.

25:02 And even when they like move their wrists and their tendons and all that stuff, yeah,

25:05 they don't ever feel it.

25:06 And that's is more likely to get dirty because it's closer to their hands.

25:09 I think that's about the only downside.

25:14 What are some of the typical points you use on kids?

25:18 Good question.

25:19 Like, oh, so another thing that's very common is allergies.

25:22 I treat kids for allergies.

25:24 Oh, yes.

25:25 Like stomach 40 is a good one because that gets rid of phlegm and congestion and mucus.

25:32 So I use stomach 40.

25:33 I like stomach 36 to help regulate digestion.

25:37 I try to pick points that are very easy to do so that if the kid gets up and runs away,

25:44 like it'll still be okay.

25:49 Kids just running out the door to get away from you.

25:51 Honestly, it hasn't happened.

25:53 The only people who get up and run to the bathroom are older men.

25:59 Kids fortunately don't move that long and they don't keep the needles in for that long

26:03 either.

26:04 I tell kids for every year they've been alive to stay one minute.

26:07 So 15 years stay for 15.

26:10 Oh, that's a great rule.

26:12 Sometimes they can't even go that far or they don't need to go that long.

26:16 Or sometimes conversely, they'll fall asleep.

26:18 Yes.

26:19 And if they fall asleep, I'll let them keep sleeping.

26:21 But you know, I even have limits on how long you can sleep.

26:26 We're busy people.

26:29 So with that, yeah, I don't do LI4 on kids because if they move, it gets uncomfortable.

26:36 That's a point between your on the web of your hand between the index and the thumb.

26:43 But that's a good one to keep teach kids for like headaches and toothaches like if they

26:48 have braces and they're having pain from that or jaw pain or allergies because they call

26:55 it the command of the face.

26:56 So it's good for headaches and right as congestion and stuff like that.

27:00 I like Li11 especially if they're like running hot or kind of fiery angry personality or

27:07 large intestine 10 because it's it's really nicely, easily gently needled.

27:12 I mean, honestly, it feels so treating kids is so gracious like no matter what you're

27:20 going to do like they're going to feel better.

27:22 So I try not to stress myself out too much about choosing the perfect points because

27:27 they're going to get better, you know, no matter what points I pick.

27:30 And as long as you know, they have a positive experience, they're not traumatized by it.

27:34 The needles don't hurt too much, then they're going to want to come back and they're going

27:37 to feel good and they're going to have a positive experience.

27:40 So everybody wins.

27:41 And that's why it's important to me to not choose points that are sore or points that

27:46 will be painful for them.

27:48 That's kind of my approach to and I figured that out early on in my career when I started

27:54 treating kids because you just don't have the same access to points on kids as you do

28:00 adults for some of those reasons you mentioned they might move, move around and squirm more

28:06 or sometimes kids just don't want you to touch a certain part of their body.

28:11 They don't want you to touch their foot or whatever.

28:13 And so yeah, and sometimes I feel that way about the wrist.

28:17 They don't want you to go anywhere near the wrist even with the intradermals and that's

28:20 fine.

28:21 Yeah.

28:22 And so I think that I learned to like, Oh, I really don't have to.

28:27 It's not about picking the perfect point.

28:29 It's about helping this kid or this young person feel comfortable, helping them to settle

28:36 into their body and just getting their chi moving more than anything.

28:42 And to I think just the process of having someone sit there and listen to what's going

28:46 on and wants to help you and wants you to feel better is very empowering too because

28:52 I don't think that kids get that all the time from people that aren't their parents or family.

28:57 Yeah, that's true.

28:58 And I think that it is a different maybe, or potentially a different kind of relationship

29:04 that they would have with their doctor because I think for a lot of kids doctors are scary.

29:10 Doctors give them shots and you know, going to the doctor's office is a scary place and

29:16 doctors often talk more with to the parents than the kids.

29:20 But an acupuncturist has the potential to have a different sort of relationship with

29:26 a kid where they're still providing health care, but giving the child more ownership

29:32 and listening to them more and just helping the child understand their own body better.

29:38 And helping them learn how to take care of their bodies too for their best.

29:42 Now are there any contraindications for kids in acupuncture or kids who might not be good

29:47 candidates for acupuncture?

29:49 So if your child has poison ivy everywhere, I think they should stay home and tell you

29:55 poison ivy is no longer contagious.

29:58 Please stay home.

29:59 Bet you didn't expect me to say that.

30:03 And is that is that coming from experience?

30:06 Yes, yes.

30:07 Of course it is.

30:10 I can't touch anywhere on the body.

30:12 Everything is red and swollen and itchy.

30:14 Wait till it gets better and then come back.

30:17 Oh, in the meantime, here's some herbs.

30:22 That's one thing I do.

30:23 I do enjoy is using herbs.

30:25 There are tinctures that are liquids that are in glycerin, so they don't taste as as

30:30 bad but herbs for kids are pretty amazing.

30:33 Like we've seen a lot of RSV here in Northern California, the flu and those are things that

30:41 respond really well to tinctures for kids.

30:45 Yeah, let's talk a little more about herbs for kids.

30:48 So you usually give them in tincture form?

30:49 Yeah, I mean, if if the kid can swallow pills, then yeah, we use their tiny tablets like

30:57 the size of a lentil.

30:59 And if worse comes to worse, they can even chew them up.

31:02 Not a particularly delicious experience, but we'll get the job done.

31:07 And what do you what do you typically prescribe herbs for?

31:11 You mentioned like respiratory issues.

31:13 What else?

31:14 Yeah, or the flu, like if they're having vomiting or diarrhea.

31:19 Also for teething, there's there's one called tender teeth.

31:23 That's a variation of Swan's Runtong, which is really good for babies for teething.

31:28 And the mama said, the baby will go and point to the bottle when their teeth are hurting.

31:34 So she said, you know, she knows that it's working because the baby goes and shows.

31:39 Yeah, which I was like, wow, isn't that amazing?

31:42 That is cool.

31:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

31:44 It made me feel really good when she said that about about how much it helped the baby

31:48 with teething pain.

31:49 So oh, wow, that's great.

31:51 Or you know, herbs for sleep because sometimes they have trouble with insomnia.

31:54 I've had a bunch of boys who had bloody noses too.

31:59 And then helping them with that because it's just like heat in the head and reckless movement

32:05 of blood.

32:06 So by clearing heat, it helps them to not have the nosebleeds.

32:09 Growing pains is another thing that acupuncture can help with sure and herbs too, because

32:15 they have such excruciating pain.

32:17 And I don't think Western medicine has anything for it.

32:20 So it's really exciting that we do.

32:23 And during the pandemic, one of my patients was abroad and they got stuck overseas because

32:27 of a lockdown.

32:29 And she's like, please send us the remedy.

32:31 The boys are, you know, really hurting at night and they want their they want the remedy.

32:36 So I sent it to them and a New Zealand so they can have it.

32:41 It's just really shows you that there are so many tools for young people to manage their

32:48 health in a way that doesn't involve pharmaceutical medicines, although, you know, some sometimes

32:55 those are needed.

32:56 Absolutely.

32:57 There's a lot of other options, too.

32:59 There's acupuncture, herbs.

33:00 Well, and I think it's really important to be supportive of where they're at because

33:03 a lot of people end up needing medication, you know, for their own mental health and

33:07 well being and I absolutely support them in doing that.

33:11 But it doesn't mean you can't add acupuncture to the mix.

33:14 And that's what I love about acupuncture is that it's so safe.

33:18 The most common thing that happens is you get a bruise, but there's no gushing blood

33:22 and it doesn't have to be painful and it makes you feel good while you're sitting there.

33:28 And you might even fall asleep for a little bit.

33:31 You get to be in a place that's quiet and relaxing and safe.

33:35 All of this just helps me to see that young people can benefit from the tools that we

33:41 offer as acupuncturists.

33:43 Absolutely.

33:44 Yeah.

33:45 So what advice would you have for other acupuncturists who maybe haven't treated a lot of kids or

33:55 aren't sure where to start with with treating young people?

33:59 So to me, the most important thing is to meet the young person where they're at.

34:04 So like I remember one person, a teenager coming in and she looked like she was I teased

34:10 her that she looked like she was getting ready to walk the plank on a ship because she was

34:15 so scared and she was tucked in on herself and her mother was pushing her through the

34:20 clinic and I was like, Oh gosh, she looks awful.

34:24 And so I was like, Hey, this is not going to hurt at all.

34:28 I want you to feel comfortable.

34:30 I'm not going to do anything unless you give me permission to do it.

34:34 And if you hate everything I try to offer you, you can go home and I'll give you your

34:37 money back.

34:39 And so I put some intradermals on and she was having hip pain.

34:44 And it really helped her.

34:45 And then once I was able to help her with that, she was like, I was like, would you

34:49 like me to do something for stress?

34:50 And she's like, you can do that.

34:51 And I was like, yeah.

34:53 And since she'd already felt a little better with her hip, then she was willing to let

34:57 me do a little more.

34:58 I think too, that's another thing is to, to, in addition to meeting them where they're

35:02 at to go their speed, I like to try and do everything all at once, but that doesn't,

35:07 that is not what their agenda is.

35:09 It's their agenda, not your agenda, which is humbling.

35:12 And sometimes, you know, you can only do two needles, but you know, you just accept that

35:16 that's what they needed and that's what they wanted.

35:18 And you know, that the next time they'll let you do some more and that any treatment you

35:24 give to them will be helpful to them.

35:27 And even if they don't feel better in that moment, like, like the young man in a wheelchair,

35:32 like it doesn't mean he's not going to get better like by the next day or the next couple

35:36 of days, but kids really are amazing in that their bodies just want to be better.

35:41 And it's very rewarding to treat them and to be creative in your, your problem solving.

35:49 Um, cause what works for one person, like I had a young person who had, um, like ticks

35:55 and so I couldn't put needles on her body because she would tick and then move and the

36:01 needles would get uncomfortable and she didn't like your needles.

36:05 And so I was left with scalp needles because if I put needles in for sleep, it meant that

36:11 I made her wired.

36:13 If I put needles in for energy and made her fall asleep.

36:16 And I thought to myself, any other acupuncturist reads this chart note, they're going to think

36:20 I'm crazy because I'm putting in sleep points to give her energy points to make her sleep.

36:25 This is, this is crazy, but that's how her body was, you know, and for me to not have

36:30 judgment about like, Oh, it can't be this way because you know, that's not how it's

36:35 indicated.

36:36 Well, nobody told her body the rules.

36:39 So you just do what works based on her.

36:41 So we use scalp points with great results.

36:45 Whereas if I had tried to, you know, do whatever I was taught and put them in the classically

36:50 indicated points, it would have been a not good experience for her.

36:54 So it sounds like kids have been some of your teachers in, in your practice.

37:00 Oh definitely.

37:01 Oh definitely.

37:02 And I mean, for me it's a lot of fun too because you know, they'll like I was treating one

37:08 who was nervous about going to camp and then she came back and I was like, how was camp?

37:12 It's just like, Oh, I got to go on, you know, the ropes course that I did.

37:17 It was like, wow, you have so much courage, all these things I would never do.

37:22 Like I was surfing and I was like, yeah, no, I would never do any of those things.

37:27 That sounds horrible.

37:28 But she was so proud of herself and I was so proud of her because she was so nervous

37:33 to go to camp.

37:34 She had such an amazing experience and acupuncture helped her to calm down before she went to

37:39 camp.

37:40 So that's neat to see how kids can blossom and grow.

37:43 And you know, there's, I've been doing this now 10 years.

37:45 There's some people where I helped them have a baby and now they're, they bring their,

37:49 their child back as a, as a young person.

37:52 It's, I get all teary about it.

37:54 Like, Oh, I knew you when you were in the womb.

37:58 And they're like, this is weird lady.

38:02 I love that and I've had that experience as well.

38:07 And what's really fun too is when, when you've been treating the mother while she's pregnant

38:15 and then the baby's born and then the baby becomes a child who comes in for acupuncture.

38:21 I mean, I have a theory that those kids probably respond even better to acupuncture because

38:31 they had it before they were even born.

38:35 And so getting acupuncturists like coming home for them.

38:38 Yeah.

38:39 Yeah.

38:40 Well, and it always like for years people would bring in the baby after I'd treated

38:45 the mother while she was pregnant and the baby would get really happy.

38:48 Cause the babies get happy in the womb, right?

38:51 Because they get the endorphins and they get really excited.

38:53 And the moms are like, what did you do to my baby?

38:55 I'm like, it's not me.

38:57 It's the needles.

38:58 It's the endorphins.

38:59 They're really excited.

39:01 And then when they would come in afterwards with the baby in their arms, the baby would

39:06 get really happy.

39:07 And I was like, why does the baby like me so much?

39:09 And then it occurred to me, the baby associates me with the endorphins that the mama got while

39:14 they were there.

39:15 So hearing my voice brings back that memory for them of, um, of all the positive hormones

39:22 that they got while they were in utero and had the acupuncture.

39:25 So it took years.

39:27 A patient had to point that out to me.

39:29 Cause I was like, why do, why do these babies that have never met me before like me?

39:32 And that's the reason why.

39:34 So well, and you know, that just leads into an entirely different topic, which we don't

39:39 have time for today, but it's acupuncture during pregnancy.

39:42 Yeah.

39:43 And there's so many benefits for that.

39:46 We'll save that topic for another episode.

39:47 I'll put it on my list.

39:48 But yeah, I mean, so, so well, what advice do you have for parents out there?

39:56 Um, I mean, first piece of advice is get acupuncture while you're pregnant.

40:00 Yep.

40:01 But beyond that, what advice do you have for parents who are interested in, in using acupuncture

40:06 to help their kids or whose kids are curious about acupuncture and interested in trying

40:10 it?

40:11 Well, I think, I think if the parent hasn't done acupuncture themselves, they should go

40:15 and have a treatment with the practitioner and kind of interview them and make sure that

40:20 they're a nice person and that the kid's going to feel safe and that it's an environment

40:24 that's friendly to kids and that the person has experience working with kids and wants

40:29 to see kids.

40:30 Cause not every acupuncturist wants to see kids.

40:32 That's true.

40:33 So it's, it's good to check in on that.

40:35 I think a community setting is ideal because the acupuncture stays in the room the whole

40:40 time and there are other people around.

40:43 And so it's just a matter of whether or not, you know, your kid can be quiet for a few

40:47 minutes.

40:48 If your kid can't be quiet for a few minutes, then, um, it's a different story, but people

40:53 bring in, um, electronic tablets and the kid can watch a show for a few minutes.

40:58 Or sometimes people will bring in a book and their kid will look through the pictures in

41:02 the book or, you know, the parents will just talk to them and sit with them.

41:06 Um, these are for little kids and then, you know, for older people, they'll listen to

41:11 music with headphones in and things like that, you know, just to make them feel more comfortable

41:16 bringing a blanket, you know, or a pillow or whatever they need to make themselves feel

41:20 more comfortable while they're there are all things that will help to make it a more positive

41:25 experience for their children.

41:27 Yeah.

41:28 Stuffed animals help too.

41:29 I've done acupuncture on many a stuffed animal.

41:34 Oh, that's great.

41:35 Alexa.

41:36 I never thought of that.

41:37 Yeah.

41:38 Yeah.

41:39 Um, you know, stuffed animals can benefit from acupuncture too.

41:42 Well, maybe we should just, um, sort of like do, do a recap of like conditions that we

41:49 only treated conditions.

41:51 I'll say some and then you say some.

41:53 Okay.

41:54 Yeah, we can do this rapid fire.

41:55 Okay.

41:56 Fire round.

41:57 Okay.

41:58 So some of the, some of the most favorite things I treat with kids are digestion, anxiety,

42:04 sleep, being able to focus, pay attention, trouble with digestion.

42:12 Allergies is a biggie in my area because I just live in an, in an area that where a lot

42:17 of people have allergies and kids get allergies really young.

42:21 So we treat all kinds of sinus issues, ear issues related to allergies, respiratory problems,

42:28 ear infections, ear infections.

42:30 Definitely.

42:31 I treat kids for stress, anxiety and depression for sure.

42:37 And a lot of kids struggle with headaches and migraines.

42:40 Oh yeah.

42:41 And acupuncture can be really beneficial for that too.

42:45 Really amazing.

42:46 And pain also.

42:48 Oh yes.

42:50 We tend to think of pain as something that only adults deal with because adults have

42:55 lived lives and injured themselves and had accidents and had problems that cause pain.

43:01 But there, there are kids out there who suffer from pain as well.

43:05 Definitely.

43:06 And it can be really hard to manage in kids because you have to be, doctors have to be

43:10 careful with the types of medications they give kids to manage their pain.

43:15 And acupuncture manages pain beautifully with no side effects.

43:19 Yeah, yeah.

43:20 And very, very limited risk.

43:22 I treat a lot of kids who are active in sports, like shin splints or hip pain or twisted ankles,

43:31 volleyball players, or people who are pitchers who have elbow issues or any of those kinds

43:40 of things.

43:41 Yeah.

43:42 Kid athletes are great candidates for acupuncture.

43:45 Really great candidates because it helps them recover from their injuries more quickly,

43:51 but also more fully so that they're not going back out and playing on an injured knee that

43:57 they can truly heal their injuries.

43:59 Yeah.

44:00 And then get back to playing those sports that they love.

44:04 One of my favorite examples was I was treating a young man who wanted to be able to play

44:08 football and he had a condition where his bone degenerated in his wrist.

44:13 And so the doctor wouldn't let him play until the bone was able to regrow and acupuncture

44:19 was the only intervention.

44:21 And they had MRIs that proved that his bone did grow using the acupuncture.

44:26 And I'd never, I never thought acupuncture could grow bones.

44:29 And there, I mean, statistically it's possible, but to actually see it and have it.

44:34 But I thought it was really funny because he played for a season.

44:36 He was like, yeah, I don't like this.

44:40 He got to try it and find out he didn't like it, but because of acupuncture, he was able

44:45 to try it.

44:46 So it was really cute.

44:47 Wow.

44:48 That is cool.

44:49 I mean, it's just, acupuncture is miraculous.

44:52 It really is.

44:53 And I mean, that's the, it's, it's, for me, it's really exciting because you don't know

44:57 what it can do until you try.

44:59 That's right.

45:00 And just because I haven't done it before, it doesn't mean I can't do it again or that

45:03 I can't do something just because I haven't done it before.

45:06 So that's really exciting.

45:07 Yeah.

45:08 Yeah.

45:09 So, well, before we wrap up, I want to talk about your clinic, Napa Acupuncture Practice,

45:16 and a fundraiser that you're doing for your free clinic.

45:19 So Napa Acupuncture Practice is a nonprofit community clinic, and you provide low-cost

45:25 acupuncture treatments.

45:27 And then as part of your mission, you also have a free clinic, right?

45:31 Yes.

45:32 We started the free clinic in 2022 through a grant through CVS and the National Association

45:39 of Free and Charitable Clinics.

45:41 And so we are participating in the Napa Valley Give Guide to raise funds for our nonprofit

45:48 free clinic on Tuesdays in 2023.

45:52 So it's for people who have Medi-Cal, people who have food stamps, people on government

45:58 housing, people who receive WIC benefits.

46:03 That covers a lot of people.

46:04 It sure does.

46:07 And so any donations you give through the website, 100% of it goes to help people to

46:12 have treatments.

46:13 And it's really a group that has benefited so much from acupuncture.

46:19 It's helped people to be able to go back to work, help people recover from long COVID,

46:23 and just such an amazing experience for the people who've been able to receive treatment

46:28 regularly and get better.

46:30 So it's really been very rewarding, and I'm excited that we get to participate with the

46:35 Napa Valley Give Guide.

46:37 That's great.

46:38 That is great that you're doing that free clinic in addition to your regular low-cost

46:43 treatments.

46:44 We will put a link to the fundraiser so that people can contribute.

46:50 And we'll put a link to that in the show notes.

46:52 And for folks who know people in the Napa area, please go see Faune at Napa Acupuncture

47:00 Practice.

47:01 I hope to get out there myself someday.

47:04 We will look forward to having you, Alexa.

47:06 Get a treatment with you.

47:07 Yeah.

47:08 Yeah.

47:09 Faune, thank you so much for joining me today.

47:11 This has been really fun and just a great conversation about a segment of the population

47:18 who can really benefit from acupuncture and are really fun to treat too.

47:22 Yeah.

47:23 Yeah.

47:24 And that it doesn't have to be scary.

47:25 It can be fun and really help them.

47:27 It can.

47:28 So I hope that this conversation will inspire some kids and their parents to try acupuncture.

47:34 Absolutely.

47:35 Thank you, Alexa.

47:36 Thank you.

47:37 This was great.

47:41 Thank you for listening to today's episode of Notes from Your Acupuncturist.

47:45 If you liked what you heard, please follow this show, leave a rating or review, or just

47:49 tell someone about it.

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47:55 on Substack, where you can comment, ask questions, participate in discussion threads, watch videos,

48:01 and read more of my reflections on acupuncture and healing.

48:05 Huge thanks as always to our paid subscribers for helping keep this work sustainable.

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48:14 Just head over to substack.com and search Notes from Your Acupuncturist or click the

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48:21 Until next time, this is Alexa Bradley-Hulsey, your acupuncturist, signing off with love

48:27 and gratitude.